Exploits as defined by Turbine

[nakano]

Are located here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=146614)

Here is the summary:

THE LIST, Episode One.™

The following activities are considered to be violations of the Terms of Service:
Using summoned items or creatures to trigger a game bug
Purposely using any method that causes monsters or NPCs to become completely unresponsive.
Bypassing a door, forcefield, barrier or other geometry which causes monsters or quest events on the other side to become unresponsive.
Purposely causing monsters to become stuck or unresponsive on geometry.
Using a game bug to remove any or all danger to yourself and/or party.
Using any method to repeatedly loot a chest without repeating the quest objectives/content/monster encounters associated with the chest.
Using any method to loot a chest or accept quest reward with any character who did not complete the related quest objective from start to finish.
Bypassing a quest timer which allows you to complete a quest or objective more often than allowed.
Any method of removing quest-only weapons, soul stones, or items from a quest instance and/or selling them on via the Marketplace or Auction House.
Communicating details on how to exploit, or indicating quests which may be exploited in public. (Including in the LFM panel. Vague comments on your play style are welcome in the Who Panel or your Character Profile.)The following activities are NOT considered to be violations, but tactics ("cheesy" or not), that may or may not be "fixed" in the future.
Corralling a monster in a corner or other area, as long as the monster remains "conscious" and continues to attempt defense and/or escape.
Using the environment (not a ladder) to climb to another location that does not result in monsters or quest events becoming broken.
"Perching" on geometry to get a better ranged shot at a monster, as long as the monster remains responsive.
"The Hero Method" when it does not involve triggering a bug.
"Bouncing Agro"
Distracting responsive monsters so a team member can complete another part of the quest without incident.We hope this list helps to clarify what Turbine considers violations and answers any questions you may have. If you have additional questions or would like clarification on certain activity, please click here to send me a PM and it may be answered directly or in the next episode of "The List".

[Coldin]

Huh, didn't show up in the dev tracker. Anyway, seems like it's all pretty much what I considered exploits anyhow. I wonder though, does getting "ghosts" to stop walking toward their home after death constitute an exploit?

At the very least, it's a little less vague and what is, and isn't, an exploit.

[Kraak]

Tripping on the pillar in the SW corner - maybe. But the others clearly "bind" to a location or just "bind" on death.

[Jules]

Having them actually define them is good. It clears up the "I didn't know" excuse. Most people are aware when they are bugging and exploiting the system, but didn't want to accept it as such because Turbine never defined it before.

Jules

[Rommalb]

those seem like some pretty broadly defined exploits, it almost sounds like getting the ghosts stuck on pillars would be an exploit there.

[Shyv]

Bypassing a door, forcefield, barrier or other geometry which causes monsters or quest events on the other side to become unresponsive.

I wonder if this would be making the jump in Running with the devils that takes you to the optional and skips a pretty large battle if you open the next door. If so that's pretty lame. Not giving us alternative methods to complete the quest is crappy. Having to do X, Y, and Z instead of maybe only doing X and Z is well I'll say it again...lame.

[Eldamir]

The following activities are considered to be violations of the Terms of Service:
Using any method to loot a chest or accept quest reward with any character who did not complete the related quest objective from start to finish.

Sounds like the days of doing Ghosts (or any of the Mod5/6 quests) with a caster/cleric party and bringing in the melees afterwards are over .. now we just have to let 1-2 melees into the group and repeat it more often ...

[nakano]

In spirit Eld I certainly agree. The rules lawyer in me though says that we could. Otherwise anyone who joined a quest in progress would not be able to loot any further chests.

But yah just to be safe I would say 5 casters/clerics and one other or a 4/2 split.

[Rommalb]

As I said, I think this is just Turbine getting pissy over the fact we routinely find holes in their oh so carefully laid plans regarding quests and since they cant do anything in game to stop us theyre just declaring them exploits.

[Xaearth]

Purposely causing monsters to become stuck or unresponsive on geometry.

Hmm... if players count as "geometry", there went STK.

Using a game bug to remove any or all danger to yourself and/or party.

Still dodging the "monsters chasing after the caster in the back instead of whacking at the shield wall", so I suppose we'll continue to hear rants about firewall being an exploit :rolleyes:.

Using any method to loot a chest or accept quest reward with any character who did not complete the related quest objective from start to finish

Whoops, no more solo runs of Durk's and inviting newbies for a shot at muckbane.

Bypassing a quest timer which allows you to complete a quest or objective more often than allowed.

Ruh-roh. No more failing VoN 6 or the E-police will lock you up for completing VoN 5 more often than the timer allows.

Any method of removing quest-only weapons, soul stones, or items from a quest instance and/or selling them on via the Marketplace or Auction House.

Curious to see if they're going to start banning pallies for taking Holy Sword outside of quests... That'd be some real pally love eh? :p

Communicating details on how to exploit, or indicating quests which may be exploited in public. (Including in the LFM panel. Vague comments on your play style are welcome in the Who Panel or your Character Profile.)

So... it's bannable to exploit. It's bannable to be in a quest where someone else exploits. And it's also bannable to tell someone who already knows the exploit you don't want them to exploit? Ban me nao plx.

Corralling a monster in a corner or other area, as long as the monster remains "conscious" and continues to attempt defense and/or escape.

Hrm... Monsters behind shield walls aren't defending or trying to escape, they're ramming their heads against a wall like a senile old goat.

Using the environment (not a ladder) to climb to another location that does not result in monsters or quest events becoming broken.

Ok... So as long as it isn't a ladder, it's not an exploit to climb up? I guess that's why there's all the hitching bugs and the changes to the VoN ladders :rolleyes:.

"Perching" on geometry to get a better ranged shot at a monster, as long as the monster remains responsive.

Ok... Then why does said geometry often result in a stuck-spot? And stuck spots are exploits btw. Why? Because /death, the only way to get un-stuck, was considered an exploit.

"The Hero Method" when it does not involve triggering a bug.

So as long as everyone is getting hit by either elementals or Velah's fire, the hero method is A-ok? Or are they saying the fact that there's one single small spot where none of a ton of scripts involving the encounter don't work is not a bug?... Somebody needs to re-read up on the hero method :rolleyes:.

We hope this list helps to clarify what Turbine considers violations and answers any questions you may have. If you have additional questions or would like clarification on certain activity, please click here to send me a PM and it may be answered directly or in the next episode of "The List".

-Kommunity Kobold, Resident Exploit Expert.

Suuuuure you do. All they did was expand on their "We won't say anything about exploits other than if there's a bug in a quest, you're exploiting and it has nothing at all to do with us. If you have doubts as to whether something is a bug, just report yourself and everyone in your party so we can ban you, because if you ask anyone if it might be a bug, you're going to be banned anyways."

Turbine needs to get their brains out of their asses and say something in plain words for once. The only reason they put this up is the fact that KK announced in the reoponed thread that the stricter ban policy would not take affect until they put up a list of what they considered exploits. So basically they stretch out their pitiful definition over a list of more general instances, instead of actually coming out and saying what's a bug and what isn't. "Vast and Mysterious" bans, woohoo.

Edit: At least one good thing comes out of this... Turbine can admit they royally screwed over casters, rangers, and (when they arrive) druids by turning their familiars/animal companions into summons, because now if they use them, there's a fair chance they'll get banned :rolleyes:.

[Vic]

Xaearth - Dude, your reading of this statement is very skewed. You seem to have missed important words like "in public", "quest-only" and "NOT considered to be violations, but tactics". The general upshot is if the mobs stay active, you're good.

Using any method to loot a chest or accept quest reward with any character who did not complete the related quest objective from start to finishThis is the only one I raise an eyebrow at. To me, this would cover joining a group already in progress.

We might have to rethink Shroud 2. Technically the ghosts that hitch on the pillar stay active, they move around... to nowhere. I still think that was intentional, why else would the pillar be there? Not sure about the tree in the northeast, never seen how the Ele's behave up there.

[Coldin]

The elementals basically just don't attempt to move. AT ALL. They die, and they accept their fate. :)

[Vic]

Well that's just 'cause we've crushed their spirits with our pure unadulterated awesome. :D But seriously, they don't dance or spin or flail their arms or anything? Guess I ought to take a look next time.

[Coldin]

Well that's just 'cause we've crushed their spirits with our pure unadulterated awesome. :D But seriously, they don't dance or spin or flail their arms or anything? Guess I ought to take a look next time.


Nope, they just stop. Same with the Bezikera and Kobold.

[Eldamir]

They heard I was coming ..

*rawr*

[Rommalb]

when the Fire elemental dies he actual becomes a Cinnderspawn ghost so his size increases drastically making it hard for him to move around

[Vic]

when the Fire elemental dies he actual becomes a Cinnderspawn ghost so his size increases drastically making it hard for him to move around
Ah ha, I'm not above calling that intentional too. They give us an enclosed space and a mob that increases in size when it dies that we want to prevent from moving.

[Xaearth]

Xaearth - Dude, your reading of this statement is very skewed. You seem to have missed important words like "in public", "quest-only" and "NOT considered to be violations, but tactics". The general upshot is if the mobs stay active, you're good.

Actually I didn't missread anything. If you notice, those quotes of mine referring to items listed under "not violations" refer to the fact that, while they seem to insinuate viable tactics, they can easily be argued that the tactics they seem to be discussing are in fact not covered under the paramaters of the statement.

For example,
"The Hero Method" when it does not involve triggering a bug.

That part in bold is a HUGE quantifier. Is the fact that Velah doesn't attack people back in the safe spot considered a bug? If so, the hero method in VoN 6 IS an exploit under Turbine's definitions here.

And while one could argue that my points are skewed, it's far more easy to prove that Turbine's attitude is just as skewed. Ever since the abbot fiasco, Turbine's community relations and developers have done everything in their power to show that they view their playerbase in two ways - ass-kissers and enemies. They don't see consumers, they don't see numbers, they don't see gamers. They see people they like, and people they're out to screw over.

I'd like to remind everyone of the forum fiasco that happened not too long ago where the forum mods went on an overzealous banning spree of anyone who didn't suck up or agree with everything they or their favorites said. If you think these more strictly enforced bans are gonna be any different, you're fooling yourself.

The fact of the matter is, it's going to come down to people on Turbine's good list reporting whoever they don't like for somehow breaking one of these obscure rules in the slightest most insignificant way possible and getting perma banned for it. And that's unacceptable. The fact that Turbine is, and will most likely continue to be, empowering this behavior by purposely making the "rules" obscure is far more unacceptable. Even worse, KK has explicitly stated that, if you are in a party where one person exploited, you WILL be held accountable and banned unless you report everyone else in your party.

Lastly, there has been discussion on what to do if a member of your group intends to exploit the quest you are in, and you are not comfortable with doing so. In this case there are three choices:[/LIST][INDENT]
Go along with the behavior that has been published as a ban-able offense, putting your game account at risk.
Don't participate in the exploit behavior, and quietly submit an in-game help ticket on the players who are taking part. An investigation will be made by the GM's (though the GM's will not be able to discuss the discipline of other players with you), and continue playing the quest without participating in the illegal exploit.
Leave the group politely, indicating that this is not the way you play the game.
Notice the bolded portions. Your choices are:
1) Risk getting banned
2) Don't participate [i]AND submit a report on the players exploiting
3) Leave the party

Am I a bit cynical? Probly. Am I hating on Turbine? Definitely. But when a company so blatantly construes a majority of their playerbase as their enemy, either by forum bans, retaliatory and overextreme quest nerfs, or flat-out putting the blame on their customers for their own coding mistakes, I believe I have every right to.

[Anduril]

As far as shroud 2 goes, if we just bring ubber tanks we could just kill them before they walk back.

[Rommalb]

actually as far as shroud 2 goes with a couple clerics Blade Barriering and some Acid fog its possible to have the entire party jump all 4 at once and slaughter them pretty quick. depending on if you have one of the teleporters or not it might be a little close but if you drag them to the upper right corner they have a bit of a walk to get back. just keep a rogue ready to break the crystal as soon as the shield drops

[Eldamir]

just keep a rogue ready to break the crystal as soon as the shield drops

i've usually seen casters used for this .. much faster.. they have about 500hp or so, i think

[Xaearth]

actually as far as shroud 2 goes with a couple clerics Blade Barriering and some Acid fog its possible to have the entire party jump all 4 at once and slaughter them pretty quick. depending on if you have one of the teleporters or not it might be a little close but if you drag them to the upper right corner they have a bit of a walk to get back. just keep a rogue ready to break the crystal as soon as the shield drops

I dunno if it's a bug or intended, but some of them are impossible to kill in a group. I mean, you can get them down to no life left, and have the whole party hit it with everything they've got, but they won't die until the other(s) are lead out of range. I know for sure the fire ele has this problem (3 seperate times we almost had it dead and someone started running around the next one in the area so the fire ele wouldn't die until he ran the other lieutenant away), and I believe some of the others do as well.

[Shyv]

actually as far as shroud 2 goes with a couple clerics Blade Barriering and some Acid fog its possible to have the entire party jump all 4 at once and slaughter them pretty quick. depending on if you have one of the teleporters or not it might be a little close but if you drag them to the upper right corner they have a bit of a walk to get back. just keep a rogue ready to break the crystal as soon as the shield drops

Only problem with this is the last couple of times that we've pulled all 4 to one corner we end up with hella lag.

[Shyv]

I dunno if it's a bug or intended, but some of them are impossible to kill in a group. I mean, you can get them down to no life left, and have the whole party hit it with everything they've got, but they won't die until the other(s) are lead out of range. I know for sure the fire ele has this problem (3 seperate times we almost had it dead and someone started running around the next one in the area so the fire ele wouldn't die until he ran the other lieutenant away), and I believe some of the others do as well.

The Gnoll is the same. You can beat him down to nothing, but have to lead him away from the others before he'll die.

[Shyv]

i've usually seen casters used for this .. much faster.. they have about 500hp or so, i think

On hard it takes 2 maximized Comet Falls. :D

[Shamguard]

OK. Since the exploit argument has finally made it's way here to House T I am going to give my rant on this subject.

First off,
WHO THE FUCK DOES TURBINE THINK THEY ARE!!! THIS IS A FUCKING GAME PEOPLE. IF YOU START BANNING PEOPLE FROM PLAY A GAME THEY HAVE PRE-PAID FOR, COSTING THEM REAL MONEY, FOR TAKING ADVANTAGE OF YOUR PROGRAMMING MISTAKES. NOT ONLY ARE YOU GOING TO LOOSE THE CONTINUED INCOME FROM THESE PEOPLE BUT ALSO FROM MANY MORE WHO WILL NOT WANT TO BUY YOU BUGGY PRODUCT ON FEAR THAT YOU'LL STEAL THEIR MONEY ALSO!!!

Every single one of these explots are because of an error in programming by a Turbine employee. There is nothing any paying player did to introduce these bugs into the game. For every player banned for using an exploit the employee who introduced the bug should be fired, to make up for the loss in revenue.
This is one of the stupidest policies I have ever heard of by any company. This threat to ban you for using a know bug is no different than if BioWare were to threaten to take back you copy of Neverwintrer Nights because you use the DM mode to give your character free XP because "that's cheating". (I know that's a game feature not a bug.)
If Turbine had better testing maybe these unwanted features would not make it into the final product. To often the real testing is being done on the live servers by the player base and as a reward for finding these bugs the player's who get some minor in game reward for their usage are threated with having their accounts canceled with no refund for unused time on the account.

I think all to often we seem to loose sight of the fact that this is a game. This is suppose to be entertainment. There is nothing that is gained as an in game reward that means a fucking thing in real life.
The only things in this game that mean anything of any value are the people we meet and the friends we make while playing this game. The rest of the sutff we "earn" in this game is wothless crap that we all use to boost our already over inflated egos. Personaly I find more pride in how I got an item than in just having it. Any asshole with enough cash can pay some plat farmer for a level 16 character with every piece of raid loot avaliable.
It takes a real player with enough pride in him self and his friends to earn each and every item he has. While enjoying being with other players and just having a good time.

BUT IF YOUR GOING TO TELL ME THAT AFTER TWO TO THREE HOURS IN A QUEST AND THE END BOSS BUGS, BECAUSE OF SOME TURBINE PROGRAMER'S MISTAKE, AND I TAKE ADVANTAGE OF IT. THAT I CAN HAVE MY ACCOUNT CANCELED AND LOOSE THE BALANCE OF MY PRE-PAID ACCOUNT. COSTING ME MONEY OVER A FUCKING GAME BUG THAT I DID NOT CAUSE. YOU HAVE GOT TO BE SOME OF THE STUPIDEST PEOPLE ON EARTH, OR YOU JUST DON'T CARE ABOUT THE FUTURE OF THIS GAME. BECAUSE NO ONE IS GOING TO WANT TO PLAY A GAME UNDER THESE CONDITIONS AND FOR EVERY ACCOUNT YOU CANCEL YOU WILL PROBABLY LOOSE FIVE TO TEN MORE JUST FROM THE BAD PUBLICITY THAT IT WILL CAUSE.

The gaming community is very close knit and it doesn't take much in the way of bad publicty to kill a game. DDO though a small MMO has a very loyal and solid player base right now. But, banning players for Turbine's mistakes will kill this player base and this game with it.

I am not arguing the morals of using or not using exploits Personaly I am not going to go out of my way to use or avoid an exploit, if I get banned for an incidental use of an exploit I will be sure to let every know. But, for now I guess I will just avoid the more blatant of these Turbine bugs.
As long as they are not caused by player hacks to the game, I think Turbine needs to take a better look at how they will deal with explots and the players who take advantage of them. I think this current heavy handed threat will only cause more players to leave the game and scare some from ever trying the game.

I do find it interesting that after encouraging us to sign up for six month accounts, with the $9.99 rate. Just after the bulk of these new pre-paid accounts get billed, they turn heavy handed in both their forums and exploit lack of tolerance.

....

[Mirta]

Notice the bolded portions. Your choices are:
1) Risk getting banned
2) Don't participate AND submit a report on the players exploiting
3) Leave the party

Am I a bit cynical? Probly. Am I hating on Turbine? Definitely. But when a company so blatantly construes a majority of their playerbase as their enemy, either by forum bans, retaliatory and overextreme quest nerfs, or flat-out putting the blame on their customers for their own coding mistakes, I believe I have every right to.

Why am I going to leave a party if, when we get to part 5, I find out that the group is going to glitch the Pit Fiend? I worked hard to get to that point and I'm not going to give up my completion because of people using exploits. Also, why am I going to report people? If nobody reports then nobody gets caught. Whenever I run the shroud it usually comes down to: how good are the clerics; and how much plat do the clerics want to waste trying to keep the tanks alive while the pit fiend constantly does 250+ damage to them? It's still possible to beat the pit fiend without exploits, but it sure is a hell of a lot easier to use summons. Also, what else can I as a caster do that makes any difference in the battle? 75 mana per polar ray @ 305 damage a pop isn't much unless you have 20000 mana.

Having them actually define them is good. It clears up the "I didn't know" excuse. Most people are aware when they are bugging and exploiting the system, but didn't want to accept it as such because Turbine never defined it before.

Jules

What about the people who don't visit the forums? Turbine already stated that the majority of players never visit the forums. The I didn't know excuse is still plausible.

[jrpfactors]

at this point ...solid groups... which most regular running guilds or friends do daily...are running this with few clerics...with the pools available in 5 Heals scrolls are not even needed unless you are running 6 tanks at him... using the pools to regen make this nothing but a 65 min loot run. we are all trying to avoid Horns but clerics are not dumping resources... any longer... at least with 3 clerics there should be essentially no cost involved, and tanks probably have a higher repair bill than a solid grouped cleric these days. If you are running it on hard or elite its another story ..but the loot is worth it

Mirta as good as you are you know there is no reason to do anything but just kill him its a 6 min kill... with the pools available clerics should have no issues at all..if they dont know how to use the pool and heal thats the issue..that or they are mass healing a mana drain

[Sunlily]

As I said, I think this is just Turbine getting pissy over the fact we routinely find holes in their oh so carefully laid plans regarding quests and since they cant do anything in game to stop us theyre just declaring them exploits.

Raze DDO to the ground and start over!

Or trash-chute existing quest designs and remake them.

Sometimes I wonder if even I could do a better job.

[Gilles Goodman]

My comments in Bold.


Originally Posted by Quarion

THE LIST, Episode One.™

The following activities are considered to be violations of the Terms of Service:

* Using summoned items or creatures to trigger a game bug
So, if I don't do it purposefully, its not an exploit. Got it.

* Purposely using any method that causes monsters or NPCs to become completely unresponsive.
So, if I don't do it purposefully, its not an exploit. Got it.

* Bypassing a door, forcefield, barrier or other geometry which causes monsters or quest events on the other side to become unresponsive.
So, if I don't do it purposefully, its not an exploit. Got it.

* Purposely causing monsters to become stuck or unresponsive on geometry.
So, if I don't do it purposefully, its not an exploit. Got it.

* Using a game bug to remove any or all danger to yourself and/or party.
So, if I don't do it purposefully, its not an exploit. Got it.

* Using any method to repeatedly loot a chest without repeating the quest objectives/content/monster encounters associated with the chest.
So, if I don't do it purposefully, its not an exploit. Got it.

* Using any method to loot a chest or accept quest reward with any character who did not complete the related quest objective from start to finish.
So, if I don't do it purposefully, its not an exploit. Got it.

* Bypassing a quest timer which allows you to complete a quest or objective more often than allowed.
So, if I don't do it purposefully, its not an exploit. Got it.

* Any method of removing quest-only weapons, soul stones, or items from a quest instance and/or selling them on via the Marketplace or Auction House.
So, if I don't do it purposefully, its not an exploit. Got it.

* Communicating details on how to exploit, or indicating quests which may be exploited in public. (Including in the LFM panel. Vague comments on your play style are welcome in the Who Panel or your Character Profile.)
Agreed


All Turbine has to do when you exploit is prove that you did it intentionally, which simply requires them to read your mind.

Um... wait a sec...

[Galvis]

Hero Velah is not an exploit, any more then having the clr stay back out of harms way in Von 3 to res peeps. It is not stated anywhere that everybody needs to be in Mortal danger every second they are in quest. Perching yourself in a spot that provides cover from the Velah in no way prevents her from attacking and/or become unresponsive.

I personally have no idea what the "exploits" are in the Shroud. I have only run Shroud 1 time, and party wiped on part 4.

[Xaearth]

Hero Velah is not an exploit, any more then having the clr stay back out of harms way in Von 3 to res peeps. It is not stated anywhere that everybody needs to be in Mortal danger every second they are in quest. Perching yourself in a spot that provides cover from the Velah in no way prevents her from attacking and/or become unresponsive.

I personally have no idea what the "exploits" are in the Shroud. I have only run Shroud 1 time, and party wiped on part 4.

The problem is, it's impossible to confirm that if Turbine continues to say nothing. Everywhere else on that platform is mortal danger (either from fire breath, wing blasts, or summoned in elementals/mephits) besides that one safe spot. It's very possible that the spot is a bug. And, if it is a bug, by Turbine's definition... it IS an exploit.

That's the problem. The definitions are still ridiculously vague because Turbine refuses to state directly what is and is not a bug (working as intended) in cases like this. That, coupled with Turbine's consistency for incompetent programming/testing, gnack for over-reacting to a single complaint by some asshat (How many people have names randomly changed because some jerk got offended that the person told them how much of a moron they really are? How many people get infractions/bans on forums for telling one of the forum favorites that they're wrong?), and total lack of customer service makes all of this a disaster waiting to happen.

[Sunlily]

From my observation of Turbine's past MMOs (ACII & ACI), they appear to have a policy of "do it our way or GTFO"; they don't like situations where the player can have an advantage over the AI.

A couple of examples: many things in DDO have ranged attacks, even when you think they probably shouldn't (and on this point, everything that has a ranged attack is intelligent enough to understand the concept of leading a moving target to hit it) and if there's a point where players can get themselves out of harms way, it is either removed from the game or something is added to make the advantage undesirable.

It's like Turbine has a fixation on what a "fun encounter" should be. Sunlily's a fragile ranged combatant - that means she can't get into melee range with most mobs (and more-so high-end content mobs like she'll be seeing for the rest of her life) because they'll tear her to bits.

Therefore, she has to stay mobile or find a perch. I'd rather not run around in circles shooting a mob that's chasing me and it pisses me off that I don't have the opportunity to jump on anything because they're all marked as SURFACE_NO_STAND or whatever and stuff starts spitting at me.

Small broken pillar with a nice flat top?: no, sorry, we can't let you do that. 3-inch ledge around a pit of rats?: no, sorry, invisible barrier. Thin rope over a pit of rust monsters?: Ok, you can do that, but we're going to make them spit at you (which, BTW is perfect evidence of one of my first points - the SRD doesn't even mention that rusties have a spit attack of any kind.

Turbine's concept is hit-and-get-hit and anything that deviates from that "fun-by-force" design pisses them the fek off so much the company has to enforce it just to keep people paying the dollar because they can't go from level 1 to level 2 in 20 minutes. So when someone uses Freezing Rain to cause the Pit Fiend to slip off his center therefore allowing the fighters to beat on him while the whirling blade circle harmlessly where he should have been standing Turbine calls "THAT CAN'T POSSIBLY BE FUN, LET'S FIX THAT FOR YOU". (I know that's not really an exploit or a bug, but that's how it could be viewed)

-----

Turbine: "Hey, if we make it so they can't stand on this pebble and so the rats have projectile vomit, they'll have to play for an extra 43 seconds and we'll be that much richer!"

Sunlily: "Hey, Turbine! If I had my way, we'd reduce DDO to rubble and start over with some fekkin' common sense, logic and core balancing mechanic in place instead of some of the crazy-ass ideas you seem to be perpetuating through the life and products of your company."

Pleh.

P.S.: I don't know if that made any sense, but I get all bothered by the inherent inefficiencies of Turbine's design practices the interrelation to its the perceived business model they're using.

[Xaearth]

Here's the latest from the "exploit list" thread:

Once again, debating the rules is prohibited. I have cleaned up the thread and it is now closed.

I'll give you guys another chance to prove that we can discuss exploits without breaking rules, attacking eachother or debating the validity of the rules, when I post the next episode. Until then this thread is closed.

If we crash and burn a third time, we'll go back to all exploit discussion being taboo on the forums.

-KK.

So, apparently it's against their spontaneous digestion rules to say whether or not their rules are too vague. It's funny. People tell Turbine the same things over and over... and Turbine says ":stfu: or we'll ban you". Dumbf**** are too stupid to realize that it's better to admit they're wrong once in a while instead of believing stroking their e-peen over their keyboards is a valid technicque for programming and community relations.

[Bigpapi]

I can't believe the Velah hero method could possibly be considered an "explot." It's been around SO long, one would hope they would have fixed it by now...

I do agree that their bans are pretty stupid for their own mistakes. If I ever get banned, hey, no skin of my back. $15/month to Blizzard instead of Turbine...

[Sunlily]

So, apparently it's against their spontaneous digestion rules to say whether or not their rules are too vague. It's funny. People tell Turbine the same things over and over... and Turbine says ":stfu: or we'll ban you". Dumbf**** are too stupid to realize that it's better to admit they're wrong once in a while instead of believing stroking their e-peen over their keyboards is a valid technicque for programming and community relations.

Hahahah. They even closed down an "official Turbine" thread discussing what is an is not an exploit.

[Sunlily]

I need to stop reading about Turbine's shenanigans before my 25 in Crazy takes over and I overrun the company by force to fix everything..





RRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!

Too late...

[Coldin]

You know Sun, I agree that probably DDO should be redone from the ground-up. I don't know if I'd blame the current devs for the problems though, but more many of the early design decision way back when.

Anyway, I basically feel that in regards to the Pit Fiend, players know that it's wrong. He just stops moving. Now, when it happens just on its own, then it's not really exploiting. But when the players systematically go through to intentionally bug him right from the beginning, well right there is the definition of an exploit. And if a GM is watching carefully while that's happening, I don't it would be hard to pinpoint which groups are exploiting.

[Sunlily]

You know Sun, I agree that probably DDO should be redone from the ground-up. I don't know if I'd blame the current devs for the problems though, but more many of the early design decision way back when.

I agree with that 100%. Someone in the beginning decided it was a good idea to tell their customers what fun was rather than let them have fun themselves.

It's like mom telling her kids to use the slide the right way rather than climb up the slide, then slide back down upside-down and backwards. Turbine's customers want excitement and adventure, not a "Choose Your Own DDO Adventure book" with only Turbine's approved choice at the bottom of every page.

Edit: I should start redesigning all the quests now as Pen & Paper adventures, then mail them to Turbine as a nice fat packet? :D

[Xaearth]

Anyway, I basically feel that in regards to the Pit Fiend, players know that it's wrong. He just stops moving. Now, when it happens just on its own, then it's not really exploiting. But when the players systematically go through to intentionally bug him right from the beginning, well right there is the definition of an exploit. And if a GM is watching carefully while that's happening, I don't it would be hard to pinpoint which groups are exploiting.

:iagree: But the problem with that is, how easy is it for some griefer PITA to go and bug the fiend and screw over your whole party? Now, they go and ban the party for continuing because of one jerk and bad programming? Sure a GM could watch... But how incompetent are the current GMs? You really think they're going to be watching who is contributing to the fiend bugging out? No, they watch who goes along and gets it over with afterwards. By encouraging people to report others to avoid being banned, griefing is the only thing that's going to come out of this.

[Coldin]

:iagree: But the problem with that is, how easy is it for some griefer PITA to go and bug the fiend and screw over your whole party? Now, they go and ban the party for continuing because of one jerk and bad programming? Sure a GM could watch... But how incompetent are the current GMs? You really think they're going to be watching who is contributing to the fiend bugging out? No, they watch who goes along and gets it over with afterwards. By encouraging people to report others to avoid being banned, griefing is the only thing that's going to come out of this.

No, I wouldn't say the GMs, especially the level 1 GMs, should really be banning folks for this. And reporting fellow players will never work, because that would seriously earn you some enemies in the game. But has anyone actually been banned at all for bugging the Pit Fiend?

What I'm saying, there should be a Senior GM, watching over a few Shroud runs. If he sees a group from the very beginning explicitly go out to bug him (not just one guy), he goes and bans the group for a week. Sure, that group of twelve are going to be royally ticked off, but it would send a message out to the rest of the players that what they were doing was against the rules. Of course by now it's actually a bit too late for it. It's become too far ingrained into a lot of people plan for the Shroud for it to change that simply. They just gotta get a fix out come Mod 7 that stops him from bugging out.

And really, what annoys me the most about all this, is that while our guild tries very hard to figure out a working method to beat the Pit Fiend and collect large ingredients, other guilds are merely taking the easy way out and reaping the rewards. It just bugs me because I doubt most of these groups could beat it without the exploit.

:rant:

[Bigpapi]

And really, what annoys me the most about all this, is that while our guild tries very hard to figure out a working method to beat the Pit Fiend and collect large ingredients, other guilds are merely taking the easy way out and reaping the rewards. It just bugs me because I doubt most of these groups could beat it without the exploit.

We have? I can't say I've been on a guild shroud run in a month or so... :wtf:

[Coldin]

Well, we were. My point is, in we go in trying to beat him legitimately, fighting hard and occasionally succeeding, and many other guilds are just breezing through it by cheating.

[Shyv]

Well, we were. My point is, in we go in trying to beat him legitimately, fighting hard and occasionally succeeding, and many other guilds are just breezing through it by cheating.

I'd be careful with a statement like that Coldin. There are a lot of "PUG" groups breezing through it by cheating. But as a whole I can only think of 2 guilds that will bug him out.

I run it with maelstrom everynight @ 8 and on normal it usualy takes 2, sometimes 3, rounds on normal in part 4 and less than 6 min in part 5 depending on if we brought our "A" games that night.

[Coldin]

Well, I kept it vague on purpose. I don't know which guilds or groups actually bug him. I just know it happens, and it really annoys me.

I'd actually really like to get in on one of these groups that are beating him quickly and easily without exploiting. I think I've only been in on one or two runs where we've beat him in ~3 passes, and that was because we took like 5 rangers and a couple barbarians.

[Shyv]

Well, I kept it vague on purpose. I don't know which guilds or groups actually bug him. I just know it happens, and it really annoys me.

I'd actually really like to get in on one of these groups that are beating him quickly and easily without exploiting. I think I've only been in on one or two runs where we've beat him in ~3 passes, and that was because we took like 5 rangers and a couple barbarians.

If you ahppen to be on and we've got an open spot I'll look for you.

Strongest Group

3 Warriors
3 Clerics
2 Casters
1 Bard
3 Rangers

But we'll run it with whatever. But the times I've seen it go in 2 rounds in part 4 we had the above group.

Hell last night it took 4 rounds in 4 and about 8 min or so on 5, but we had the following.

1 cleric
2 barbs
1 fighter
1 paladin
2 rogues
2 rangers
2 casters
1 bard

Not exactly an optimal group but fun and quick all the same. :ninja2:

[Coldin]

I'm curious Shyv, what's your plan of attack at Part 5? We've only been successful with a Ping-pong type method. It's pretty slow, but it works.

[Shyv]

I'm curious Shyv, what's your plan of attack at Part 5? We've only been successful with a Ping-pong type method. It's pretty slow, but it works.

depends on how many cleric are there. If 3 clerics, then 3 tanks beat on him nonstop. Casters help out with haste and fire prot and debuffs. Bards use song, haste, and range. Everyone else range and help out as you can. Pretty much just a non stop beat down. No mass healing, just individual heals.

[Brother Tuck]

I read through most of the posts and I would say the following (rant on):

Xaerth if you want to be a cynic go right ahead but do me a favor and pull your head out of your ass....cause your starting to stink up the joint.

Turbine is ONLY talking in general terms because they dont want to give SPECIFIC examples of exploits in the oft chance there are some that dont know about them they dont want to give those people a blue print how to start exploiting...PERIOD!! Nothing more and nothing less and that is directly from devs.

I have had discussions with devs about what is a tactic (cheesy or not) vs what is an exploit. They are defining an exploit as taking advantage of getting the AI to be non-responsive....so a door fight is a tactic and not an exploit. They have thought more than a few creative ideas were very creative and not intended as exploits...when they find out about them they either leave alone (as creative) or they close the loopholes.

Giles as to your purported "I did not INTEND for that to happen and you cant prove I did" theory thats real simple....ONCE is an accident and TWICE means you did it on purpose because you knew it would happen the second time and did it on purpose...YOU WILL BE BANNED.

To further what they are doing...they are planning to define what are exploits, then give warnings and they will start banning people. THAT is the plan if people keep doing it and personally I applaud it. I dont want loot that was not earned...if I did I would buy it on Cherry's MMOBAY site for cash cause I am LAZY and did not want to earn it.

Coldin, they did not mean that if you enter a quest late you did not earn your loot...they simply meant you are exploiting if you had everyone else do the work and then you joined JUST to get the reward. Getting favor reward is NOT a bannable offense either as far as I know...not trying to game the system for LOOT....

[Coldin]

Coldin, they did not mean that if you enter a quest late you did not earn your loot...they simply meant you are exploiting if you had everyone else do the work and then you joined JUST to get the reward. Getting favor reward is NOT a bannable offense either as far as I know...not trying to game the system for LOOT....

Hmm? I didn't say anything about that, did I?

The only thing that really annoys with the whole exploit thing on Turbine's end is that I don't think Turbine ever really bans people for exploiting. So people that do exploit can keep abusing the system, while people that don't fall behind in the power curve.

[Xaearth]

I read through most of the posts and I would say the following (rant on):

Xaerth if you want to be a cynic go right ahead but do me a favor and pull your head out of your ass....cause your starting to stink up the joint.

Turbine is ONLY talking in general terms because they dont want to give SPECIFIC examples of exploits in the oft chance there are some that dont know about them they dont want to give those people a blue print how to start exploiting...PERIOD!! Nothing more and nothing less and that is directly from devs.

Well, frankly, I prefer to have my head up my own ass than the collective asses of Turbine (not referring to anyone in particular other than those damn fanbois on DDO forums :p). Turbine's stance on "we don't want people to know about it" is pure bullshit. They don't have to tell us what is a specific exploit. They do have to tell us what is and what isn't intended behavior. There's a big difference between saying "The pit fiend will bug out if you do this, so don't do it or you will get banned" and saying "There's an unexpected behavior with AI (GLOBALLY) that sometimes occurs when this, this, and this happens, so avoid doing it or you could end up exploiting this bug and risking your account." There's also a big difference between saying "The hero method is a tactic as long as there are no bugs involved." and saying "The platform in VoN 6 is working as intended."

Edit: I forgot to mention here that Turbine doesn't even have to say what triggers the bugs, all they have to do is describe the end behavior. Like they did with "Monsters becoming unresponsive" That's acceptable, if vague.

I have had discussions with devs about what is a tactic (cheesy or not) vs what is an exploit. They are defining an exploit as taking advantage of getting the AI to be non-responsive....so a door fight is a tactic and not an exploit. They have thought more than a few creative ideas were very creative and not intended as exploits...when they find out about them they either leave alone (as creative) or they close the loopholes.

Wow, you can actually communicate with Turbine. See, there's the problem here, you're a special case. Turbine gives a rat's ass about the majority of people and more or less ignore them, unless they decide to ban them for daring to attempt to adress them. Turbine has horrible customer service and even worse community reps.

Giles as to your purported "I did not INTEND for that to happen and you cant prove I did" theory thats real simple....ONCE is an accident and TWICE means you did it on purpose because you knew it would happen the second time and did it on purpose...YOU WILL BE BANNED.

Again, I call bullshit. Why? Because Turbine has either the most incompotent programmers in the gaming industry or the most incompotent QA/testing in the gaming industry. As a result, the AI has a fairly decent chance to bug out without any direct attempt to produce that affect. In fact, there's a good chance of it happening any time that someone that's currently being targetted by the AI dies. Soulstone aggro ftb. (That's 'for the ban' if you're wondering)

Oh, and let's not forget having one asshat in the party determined to :censored: everyone else and cause an exploit to occur against the wishes of the remainder of the party. Turbine can't prove who wanted the exploit triggered and who didn't. They end up making their decisions by the people who don't drop party and/or don't file a report.

If Turbine wishes to ban those that don't drop from a raid after an hour or so of work to get there just because some jerk bugged the AI, they can go right ahead, but they'll have a much smaller playerbase overnight. Maybe when they actually hire some real GMs instead of outsourcing to some brainless telemarketing firm, people would actually try to get a GM to unbug the encounter, until then, I'll take my ban and my money elsewhere.

To further what they are doing...they are planning to define what are exploits, then give warnings and they will start banning people. THAT is the plan if people keep doing it and personally I applaud it.

Again, bullshit. Turbine has stated directly that they will NOT define what an exploit is. Why? Because they can't give specific examples and they're too egotistic to admit they can make a mistake and tell their playerbase what is a bug and what is working as intended. Think I'm wrong? I challenge you to find a single dev quote mentioning whether or not Shroud pt 2 is working as intended.

PS: I also think it's infinitely hilarious to think that Turbine will end up banning people (likely returning veterans, and maybe a few newbies) when mod 7 goes live for doing Muckbane runs and inviting people in just for the chest :smrt:.

[jrpfactors]

I'm curious Shyv, what's your plan of attack at Part 5? We've only been successful with a Ping-pong type method. It's pretty slow, but it works.


our group.... 3 tanks that have the gear....high hp 425-800hp.....3 clerics each cleric has an assigned tank...heals him and him only with heal spells only timed with quicken...to refill him once hes down to around only 25% life left. 2 casters keep haste/ displacement/ fire protection/ stoneskin on the 3 tanks....ONLY...they can let loose mana on big guy at last 10% of his life only..... 3 rangers range.....bard sings and can use force missle wands..or repeater or bow if he has it.....it is done in 6 min on normal....8 min on hard.....we run 2 everynight. shyv/ bunk its been great having you guys running with us....biggest mistakes pugs make is their clerics are not using pools and healing at same time...65 min no rushing, downside is listening to all of us talk our bullshit..we talk alot....not much typing in our runs...hard to get a word in,,, with drunkim,myself,lotis,lysol,bunk and others start talking about muppets LOL

jrp
maelstrom/bane

[Jundak]

I've done it both ways, Coldin.

Ping-pong method works well, but drives me insane. :)

Hero method is always my preference, just for the time factor. I've had one run where Jundak and two other tanks were on the Fiend with only bards healing us. Took a little longer as one of the tanks would have to break off while his bard recharged his mana at the pool (asshole wasn't cooperating that night and wouldn't hang in range of the pools). I think the whole thing took us about 7 minutes with non-standard healers.

[Vic]

I'm sorry, bards healing tanks on the pit fiend? You know I like you and respect you Jundak, but I call shenanigans.

http://www.tc.umn.edu/~jenic001/GreatScott.JPG