The Support Bard

[Vic]

So I'm messing around with the idea or re-rolling Viq, my rogue Bard. His skill-fu is weak and thrown weapons just aren't working out. I find myself trying to distill down what would makes a solid support character.

So here we go with: The Support Bard.

Viq Kevlar
Human C/G Bard 13/Rogue 2/Cleric 1 (oh noes an MC Bard!)

Stats:
Str 8 +6 = 14
Dex 8 +6 = 14
Con 14 +6 item = 20 Con
Int 16 +1 Race +6 item +1 tome = 24 Int
Wis 8 +6 = 14
Cha 18 +4 Level +2 Class +1 Race +6 item +1 tome = 32 Cha

Leveling:
1 - Rogue 1
2-14 - Bard 1-13
15 - Cleric 1
16 - Rogue 2

Feats:
1 - Force of Personality (Will save based on Cha)
1 - Insightful Reflexes (Reflex save based on Int)
3 - Mental Toughness
6 - Extend
9 - Quicken (Disco Ball without quicken gives me great anger)
12- Spell Pen
15- Greater Spell Pen

Spells (level order, not order taken)
1 CLW > Merfolks? (swap when get CSW)
1 Ex Ret
1 Otto's
1 Rm Fear > Grease! (swap at Cleric 1)
2 Blur
2 Glitter Dust
2 Rage
2 Heroism > Soundburst (swap when get GHope)
3 CSW
3 Displacement
3 Good Hope > Crushing Despair (swap when get GH)
3 Haste
4 Otto's Sphere
4 FoM
4 Dominate
4 DDoor
5 GH
5 Mass Suggestion
5 Shadow Walk? Summon? (This spell list sucks)

The Good:
Spellslinger - gotta love it.
Evasion - still kicks ass.
Rogue Skills - should scale alight.
Roughly 12 DVs - 200 SP aka 5 or 6 Heal spells.
Enough UMD to Raise Dead without burning too much money.
It's a bard!

The Bad:
Spell DCs - The great sin of multi classing a bard.
Solo play is a laughable concept.
Regrettable loss of Otto's Irresistible until level 19.
Fort save? Ac? He's heard of them, but doubts they really exist.
The song bumps at 14 & 15 have to wait for the level cap raise to 18.

The Ugly
Class Display - Would you invite a 13Bard/2Rogue/1Cleric to your group?

Feat-wise my thinking is the Spell Pen feats will help balance out the success rate compared to a full bard without those feats. If crowd control with the lowered DCs is truly disastrous I could see swapping spell pen for Imp Mental Toughness and/or Extra Turns to buff and DV more.

I'm thinking it might be worthwhile to take Cleric 1 after I get Haste/GHp to start using the DVs earlier. Maybe move rogue 2 to just after I get Disco Ball.

The DV idea came form a 15 Sorc 1 Cleric we ran the shroud with a while back. I've been thinking about taking it on Vk, but I think this is a much better application of the idea.

General thoughts?

[nakano]

To preface. I hate the concept of multiclass bards.

However I like the look of this build. Its set up for total party support. Very nice.

Further comments to come

[Coldin]

I really just don't see the point to cleric 1. Are the DVs really going to be that helpful in the end-game?

Other thoughts though, the build should serve pretty well as a Buffer/CC/Trap-monkey. The spell pen feats will really help in the end game. And spell DCs should be fine. Those are determined by spell level and stat, not by level.

[nakano]

I really just don't see the point to cleric 1. Are the DVs really going to be that helpful in the end-game?


I cannot count the number of times the party has scrambled in one of the vale quests on hard/elite to find a mana pot for a cleric. Yes the DVs are that helpful at endgame IMO.

Particularly on a noncleric to be earmarked for the cleric.

[Paladin20]

lol Vic,

Build is similar to my own Brogue, Jestter... my idea was to build a bard with full rogue skills, however, and I don't have the Cleric level DVs. Eventually he will take 1 level of Wizard for Magical Training and a Metamagic Feat, and he will take spellsinger as well. I had the idea for the build like last October before I stopped playing for a while but still haven't gotten him to a decent level (I'm terrible at it), but when I find it I'll post the build here.

[Jules]

Very similar to darkling my barroge - I really like the idea of cleric and may go that route myself

Jules

[nakano]

The Good:
Spellslinger - gotta love it. Too true. Spellsinger just makes everything easier
Evasion - still kicks ass. Should be strong with insightful reflexes.
Rogue Skills - should scale alight. Scaling won't be an issue at all. Devestia hits all traps in the game at normal difficulty with 6 ranks in her skills. Level -3 quests on Hard and Elite. Its a matter of hunting down the top end gear is all.
Roughly 12 DVs - 200 SP aka 5 or 6 Heal spells. This sir is FANTASTIC.
Enough UMD to Raise Dead without burning too much money. By endgame the scrolls should be pretty much automatic. With rogue's skill boost yah should have few if any difficulties.
It's a bard! Played by a good player. Yah forgot the important part.

The Bad:
Spell DCs - The great sin of multi classing a bard. Spellsong trance and Spell Focuse Items(and of course the woo-woo stick) make DCs not a huge issue.
Solo play is a laughable concept. Yah but that is why you have a guild, and two accounts.
Regrettable loss of Otto's Irresistible until level 19. Level six bard spells. Can I say meh any louder. Dance is nice, but honestly not even close to a deal breaker
Fort save? Ac? He's heard of them, but doubts they really exist. Most important fort saves are disentegrate and FOD. Deathblock stops one of them. Dodging with mad twitch skills stops the other.
The song bumps at 14 & 15 have to wait for the level cap raise to 18. Yah this sucks, but you take the good, you take the bad.

The Ugly
Class Display - Would you invite a 13Bard/2Rogue/1Cleric to your group? I play Devestia. I hear yah. To be honest the 13/2 is not an issue, its a semi-common bard MC. The cleric is odd but most savvy players will immediately understand why. The ones who don't and refuse yah cause your build is gimped are likely asshats yah don't want to play with anyway.


Feat-wise my thinking is the Spell Pen feats will help balance out the success rate compared to a full bard without those feats. If crowd control with the lowered DCs is truly disastrous I could see swapping spell pen for Imp Mental Toughness and/or Extra Turns to buff and DV more. You are behind the enchantment specced bard for DCs but right on track beyond that. K has a 33 CHA IIRC and I don't have serious issues with spells sticking, as long as I remember about the goddamn metamagic Spell DC bug.

I'm thinking it might be worthwhile to take Cleric 1 after I get Haste/GHp to start using the DVs earlier. Maybe move rogue 2 to just after I get Disco Ball. I would be inclined to hold off on any non bard levels beyond rogue 1 until after you get level 10 bard. Its just too important. After that I would say{and I cannot believe that I am saying this} At level 12 take cleric, at level 13 take rogue. Then finish up with three more levels of bard.



Thoughts in red.

[Vic]

Thanks for the feedback everyone. Notes taken. "Hell yes" on the woo-woo stick. I've never really looked at it that closely before.

Guess I'll roll him up this weekend and put a couple levels on it with my second account. C'mon and get your monks already, Viq's gonna need some xp. :D

[Galvis]

I cannot count the number of times the party has scrambled in one of the vale quests on hard/elite to find a mana pot for a cleric. Yes the DVs are that helpful at endgame IMO.

Particularly on a noncleric to be earmarked for the cleric.

Dv's to the Clr before a Boss fight are Always a Welcome addition. Kyllyn sports 12 dv's as well and I love getting the "Umm Who's doing that. TYVM" from the cleric. And then the rest of the time we are partied together, he is usually asking for them, lol.

[nakano]

I have always found the the more nice things you do for your cleric the more nice things they do for you(also known as not letting you die). Hence the reason I will always stone the party, toss any defensive buffs needed etc as a caster. As a tank self healing FTW. I know personally the folks who make my life easier on Hemdal have a much better chance of not making my P.I.M.P.ed list.

[nakano]

Feats:
1 - Force of Personality (Will save based on Cha)
1 - Insightful Reflexes (Reflex save based on Int)
3 - Mental Toughness
6 - Extend
9 - Quicken (Disco Ball without quicken gives me great anger) Be smart and your disco is never interuppted. Heighten would be better IMO. Disco is a prepared spell not an on the fly spell IMO. Prepared spells need no Quicken.
12- Spell Pen
15- Greater Spell Pen

Spells (level order, not order taken)
1 CLW > Merfolks? (swap when get CSW) Honestly I would not swap it out. A couple of healing spells are great and CLW is the perfect "Bobby has a boo-boo spell.
1 Ex Ret
1 Otto's
1 Rm Fear > Grease! (swap at Cleric 1)
2 Blur
2 Glitter Dust
2 Rage
2 Heroism > Soundburst (swap when get GHope) Again this spell(soundburst) really emphasizes the advange of heighten over quicken
3 CSW
3 Displacement
3 Good Hope > Crushing Despair (swap when get GH) nooooooes. don't join kyrian in the evil not having good hope club.
3 Haste
4 Otto's Sphere
4 FoM
4 Dominate not a big fan of this one. i prefer suggestion and mass suggestion as a rule of thumb. yet get exactly what yah pay for, you know how long yah own the mob.
4 DDoor
5 GH
5 Mass Suggestion
5 Shadow Walk? Summon? (This spell list sucks) Mass CLW FTW. So useful in soooooo many places.


you are now up to 4cp Vic.

K

[Coldin]

Good Hope is actually only useful once you get Greater Heroism if you don't feel like casting Greater Heroism on everyone, or if you need to get rid of crushing despair.

Break Enchantment actually fills in quite nicely because it lets you dispell AOEs, as well as removing any ongoing debuffs. You just have to remember that it also works against you, removing your own AOEs, and debuffs you placed on enemies (including charms).

I agree with Xan that Suggestion/Mass Suggestion are better spells to have than even Charm Monster or Dominate Person, for a different reason though. With suggestion you can charm a much larger variety of foes.

I'd look into Greater Dispel as well. It's very situational, but it might be nice pre-debuff to get rid of resist spells, fireshields, and blurs.

[Shyv]

A couple of healing spells are great and CLW is the perfect "Bobby has a boo-boo spell.

K

Bobby needs to go buy himself some damn potions is what Bobby needs to do. While he's at it it wouldn't hurt to pick up some remove fear, lesser restore, blindness removal, curse removal, disease removal, proof of poison, and a couple of rage potions.

I'm getting tired of Bobby not having some basic idea of what he needs to bring into a quest. And if bobby keeps it up he's going to find his soul stone floating in a pool of lava with a /laugh going on above his ethereal body....

Bobby sucks.:hammered:

This is meant as a joke and I hope nobody is named Bobby!!!

[nakano]

ROFLMAO Shyv. Nice. You know I am from the church of self sufficent and prepared. The thing is that bard level 1 spells suck at end game overall without heighten, and I was not gonna preach too much bout heighten in any one post. Thanks for the oppurtunity to preach the gospel of HEIGHTEN FTW again though bro.

;)

[Eldamir]

that brings up a question of my own, Xandek ... If I have a 9clr/7wiz and heighten my soundburst, does it get cast as 9th level or 16th?

[Shyv]

that brings up a question of my own, Xandek ... If I have a 9clr/7wiz and heighten my soundburst, does it get cast as 9th level or 16th?

The cleric level.

Or at least it should.

So as a 5th level spell, or a +4 to the DC.

[Eldamir]

Thats what I thought, since that makes the most sense .. but have never tried anything like that -- and don't have the time, patience or whatever to level up a character with the sole purpose of testing something like that out :D

(although I guess you could go to lvl4 as clr2/sorc2 and test out things there so that wouldn't be too bad to test out )

[nakano]

According to PNP its the highest level spell that you are capable of casting in the class that the heightened spell comes from.

[Vic]

Two months out, 10 levels in. Just thought I'd give an update, I really dig this build. I elected to take the cleric and second rogue levels at 9/10. That gave me the DVs that are kind of the signature of this build and topped off my rogue skills.

Unlike the original build, the rogue skills on this bard are good. Spot is kind of an issue but a dream visor should help fix that.

The bard stuff has been a bit weak-sauce lately as I'm only a level7 bard in a level 10 shell. I'm sure that will pick back up as I level.

Solo play is as predicted, laughable. At level 7 I was able to buff the hell out of Viq and go after the CR3 mobs in 3BC.

Everybody loves somebody, when they've got DVs. Enough said.

[Jules]

You are just plain evil Vic. You mentioned the cleric level in the latest bard/rogue thread for DV's and I had to look up Darrklings stats - with wis of 12 and cha of 18 she is now Bard 2/ Rogue 1/ Cleric 1. Looks like I'm gonna have to start playing her a bit more.

Jules

[Vic]

M'wahahaha! :D

Viq just hit 14, 11 bard, 2 rogue, 1 cleric. With 32 Cha, the extra turn undead feat and the first extra turn undead enhancement he's up to 19 DV1s. He's rocking 223HP, 1005 sp and maxed rogue skills. I am very pleased with how it's turning out. The only downside is how loooong it takes to dole out DVs.

Been running the hound and shroud with him. Enjoyable, is the one word I would use to describe the experience. Last night he healed a small group in the shroud part 2, popped the locks in part3, DV'd clerics in 4 and 5 and kept the meat shields sung up, raged and hasted as much as possible. Mission accomplished.

There are only two drawbacks I'm seeing. My enchantment stuff is still weak. Disco balls are a 50/50 proposition. I'm lacking the high end bard buffs like Greater Heroism and Inspire Heroics. I'll get GH at 16, but heroics has to wait for the cap raise.

I have to give props to GSI and HouseT for helping me get this character leveled. He has a pretty serious lack of solo-ability and almost every single xp he has was earned with the assistance of many of you.

[Jules]

M'wahahaha! :D

Viq just hit 14, 11 bard, 2 rogue, 1 cleric. With 32 Cha, the extra turn undead feat and the first extra turn undead enhancement he's up to 19 DV1s. He's rocking 223HP, 1005 sp and maxed rogue skills. I am very pleased with how it's turning out. The only downside is how loooong it takes to dole out DVs.

Been running the hound and shroud with him. Enjoyable, is the one word I would use to describe the experience. Last night he healed a small group in the shroud part 2, popped the locks in part3, DV'd clerics in 4 and 5 and kept the meat shields sung up, raged and hasted as much as possible. Mission accomplished.

There are only two drawbacks I'm seeing. My enchantment stuff is still weak. Disco balls are a 50/50 proposition. I'm lacking the high end bard buffs like Greater Heroism and Inspire Heroics. I'll get GH at 16, but heroics has to wait for the cap raise.

I have to give props to GSI and HouseT for helping me get this character leveled. He has a pretty serious lack of solo-ability and almost every single xp he has was earned with the assistance of many of you.

I have found that the support works both ways - its to their benefit to help you build a better character and level him. :)

Jules