Elven Spellsword

[Jundak]

This is Sioril's build, for those of you who have no idea which direction I'm headed with her, yet:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.85
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 16 Lawful Good Elf Female
(8 Fighter \ 1 Cleric \ 7 Wizard)
Hit Points: 200
Spell Points: 589
BAB: 11\11\16\21 (+2 Elf, +2 Feat, +1 Cleric enhancement = 16 Base)
Fortitude: 11
Reflex: 7
Will: 11
Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 16)
Strength 16 23 (+2 tome, +6 belt = 30)
Dexterity 14 16 (+6 boots = 22)
Constitution 12 13 (+2 tome, +6 item = 20)
Intelligence 16 18 (+6 goggles = 24)
Wisdom 10 11 (+5 necklace = 16)
Charisma 8 8 (Meh...major dumpstat)
Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 1
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 1
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 1
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 1
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 1

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 16)
Balance 4 10.5
Bluff -1 -1
Concentration 3 19
Diplomacy -1 -1
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle -1 -1
Heal 0 0
Hide 2 3
Intimidate -1 -1
Jump 7 24
Listen 0 2
Move Silently 2 3
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 3 4
Search 3 6
Spot 2 5
Swim 3 6
Tumble 4 12
Use Magic Device n/a n/a

Level 1 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Level 2 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Extend Spell
Spell (1): Tumble
Spell (1): Ray of Enfeeblement
Spell (1): Nightshield
Spell (1): Magic Missle
Spell (1): Jump
Spell (1): Hypnotism
Spell (1): Expeditious Retreat
Enhancement: Elven Arcanum I
Enhancement: Elf Melee Damage I
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation I
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar I
Level 3 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Dodge
Feat: (Selected) Iron Will
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Fluidity I
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Level 4 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Elf Melee Attack I
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Mastery I
Level 5 (Wizard)
Spell (1): Detect Secret Doors
Spell (1): Grease
Enhancement: Elven Arcanum II
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence I
Level 6 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Mobility
Spell (2): Blur
Spell (2): False Life
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Fluidity II
Level 7 (Cleric)
Spell (1): Bane
Spell (1): Bless
Spell (1): Cause Fear
Spell (1): Command
Spell (1): Cure Light Wounds
Spell (1): Divine Favor
Spell (1): Doom
Spell (1): Inflict Light Wounds
Spell (1): Nimbus of Light
Spell (1): Obscuring Mist
Spell (1): Protection From Evil
Spell (1): Remove Fear
Spell (1): Shield of Faith
Spell (1): Summon Monster I
Enhancement: Follower of the Silver Flame
Enhancement: Fighter Mobility I
Level 8 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: STR
Spell (2): Resist Energy
Spell (2): Scorching Ray
Enhancement: Elf Melee Damage II
Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Spring Attack
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Elven Arcanum III
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II
Level 10 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Elf Melee Attack II
Level 11 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Empower Spell
Spell (3): Haste
Spell (3): Heroism
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar II
Level 12 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Spell (3): Sleet Storm
Spell (3): Ray of Exhaustion
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Fluidity III
Level 13 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Combat Expertise
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II
Level 14 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Mastery II
Level 15 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Elements I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness III
Level 16 (Wizard)
Spell (4): Enervation
Spell (4): Wall of Fire
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Elements II
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation II



Sioril is a sword and board build, with the longsword as her weapon of choice. All of the items (minus the +2 tomes) listed next to the stats above are already sitting in the bank.

The spell selection that you see will probably be her typically memorized spells. Obviously I'm aiming for debuffing, no save spells for her mainstay. I'm also taking a page out of Devestia's book and tossing in Firewall for something to fight in and draw aggro from the more squishy two-weapon/two-hander tanks.

Numbers without spell buffs:

Attack:
11 Base
2 Elf Enhancements
2 Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing
1 Follower of the Silver Flame
10 30 Str
4 Acid Longsword +4 (Currently the best weapon available until she gets a Greensteel sword)

= 30 Attack, 25 w/CE

Armor Class:
10 Base
1 Dodge
5 Dex (Armor Mastery II)
7 +5 Heavy Mithral Shield
13 +5 Mithral Full Plate
2 Chaosguardes
5 +5 Protection Ring
3 Chattering Ring
3 Barkskin Potion

= 49 AC, 54 w/CE, 60 while Tumbling (Mobility + Fighter Mobility I)

ASF:

25% Mithral Fullplate
5% Mithral Heavy Shield
-10% Elven Arcane Fluidity
-10% Seven Fingered Gloves

= 10%

With the extremely rare Twilight Mithral Fullplate, I could drop that down to 0% ASF. I currently have a +1 suit waiting in the bank...not sure if I want to sacrifice 3 AC for 0% failure yet, however. Decisions, decisions...

Hitpoints and saves are, indeed, mediocre without extra gear added in there. The point of this build is the challenge to play something this whacked all the way through to cap and be good at it. She's been expensive as hell to level up (constantly buying new equipment for her as she went through lowbieville), but Sioril has been a blast to play so far (Just hit level 8). Looking back, the only change I would have made is to take the Cleric level a bit sooner. Quaffing potions for every single ailment got old pretty quick. Wands are a helluva lot cheaper.

One last note: If anyone decides to give this build or the Devestia build (Kyrian's version of the Spellsword), be prepared to solo a lot unless you have guildies ready to run with ya. Personal experience has been the cold-shoulder or a bunch of folks laughing hysterically at the level distribution right up until I pulled their collective asses out of the fire.

A few of you folks have already run a few quests with her, but feel free to tear the build apart and make me cry. :D

[nakano]

Actually Jun the response to battle casters now is much better than last year when I was building Devestia. It still sucks as its a build that is not an autopilot, but really challenges the skills of the person behind the keyboard. I am always careful about accepting these builds in the party and if I don't know the player I use the guild tag as an guideline.

Looking at the build the first thing that stands out is the ASF. Realistically until the 7 fingered gloves are in your hands(or on them as the case may be) the ASF is 20%. IMO that is way too high. The TMFP while costing you AC means that your clutch displacement will fail 1/2 as much, and that your in combat haste will fail half as much. That all important aggro drawing spell will fail 1/2 as much. As things stand atm 1/5 of all gesture requiring spells will fail. 1/10 is a much better rate.

I would wear the TMFP until you have the gloves, and then make the switch. God knows they are a chore to find.



More to come.

[Jundak]

I'm operating with a 25% ASF, atm...yeah, when I roll low for spells it comes in waves. When I roll 26%+, I'm usually on a good run, too. Depends on the dice and beer consumption, I think. :)

I'm going to continue as I am for the time being. The TMFP can't be worn until I'm level 10, regardless...so I'll have to see how frustrated I become.

[nakano]

I have a tmfp in the bank. Lemme check the minimum level.

As to frustration Jun, it gets better. Trust me. Soon you will be in the easy to run with the guildies range and then the hurting stops.

[Halifex]

Jundak-

It seems you took a level in cleric to overcome your lack of UMD. You could have chosen pally which would have given you almost as many wands to use, but would also have given you the BAB, and maybe an LOH. IMO, taking one level in cleric is a bad second choice to building up UMD from the beginning. Divine Favor is the only spell you will likely cast at higher level, and your caster level will be 1 for it, so it will have a very short duration.

One frustration I would have with the build is that your caster level is never going to be satisfactory. Your hastes will never exceed 2 min duration, your firewalls will do the minimum damage a firewall does given your gear loadout. Your sp are very low - lower than my WF 1 rog / 7 wiz. (Maybe the 589 does not account for Wizardry or Magi items) Eddie's pally has more sp than that (750 as I recall) and he has far fewer caster levels in his build. Your caster level is too low to be considered a caster that can tank. Your resist energies will be 20 point ... note this is what you can get from House P buffs, which will last longer and not go away after shrining.

Another frustration I would have with the build is the hit points. Your hit points are too low to be considered a tank that can cast. Even with the AC you have (which is respectable), you're gonna get hit. My tank has 372 at 16 and I think that is too low. A good tank needs 450+ at 16 these days, IMO.

Minor issue, but why more skill in Jump than in Concentration? The ASF is already going to result in some wasted sp over the character's life, and having lower than the highest Concentration you could achieve exacerbates this problem.

Advantages I see with the build: you will be versatile for lower level content. So if you want bum around lower level adventure zones and the Harbor, this toon will never need a full group and may be able to solo quite a bit.

The build would likely be FAR more satisfying in a PNP environment, where the versatility would add a lot more value to a group, and the weaknesses may never show up, especially since you have a decent AC and Will Save. Mobs are much easier to take down in PnP and creative tactics are far more important. Example: levitate / fly.

[Jundak]

Jundak-

It seems you took a level in cleric to overcome your lack of UMD. You could have chosen pally which would have given you almost as many wands to use, but would also have given you the BAB, and maybe an LOH. IMO, taking one level in cleric is a bad second choice to building up UMD from the beginning. Divine Favor is the only spell you will likely cast at higher level, and your caster level will be 1 for it, so it will have a very short duration.

I thought about taking the Pally level, but went with Cleric for one major reason: Almost 100 extra spell points.

A level of Paladin would have yielded no spell points whatsoever, and I was able to make up the loss of a BAB with the Sovereign Host enhancement.

You're correct about the spells...although I still have the extra spell slots, so I keep Divine Favor and Bless both memmed. Bless could be a clutch spell, if I need the extra attack bonus. CLW is something I'll probably use just to get someone back on their feet, while in battle...pretty much only good for getting someone away from the brink of death in the higher levels, but it's on my spell bar, so I might as well find a use for it.

One frustration I would have with the build is that your caster level is never going to be satisfactory. Your hastes will never exceed 2 min duration, your firewalls will do the minimum damage a firewall does given your gear loadout. Your sp are very low - lower than my WF 1 rog / 7 wiz. (Maybe the 589 does not account for Wizardry or Magi items) Eddie's pally has more sp than that (750 as I recall) and he has far fewer caster levels in his build. Your caster level is too low to be considered a caster that can tank. Your resist energies will be 20 point ... note this is what you can get from House P buffs, which will last longer and not go away after shrining.

The Firewall is only meant to supplement the damage I would be doing to the mobs surrounding me. Instead of thinking of it as a weak version of a wizard or sorc's spell, think of it as adding 9 to 19 points of damage to Sioril's melee DPS...without a Greensteel weapon or other scepter to increase the spell's damage.

A 20 point spell resist is better than nothing...and there's plenty of mobs out there that simply take great pleasure in dispelling all of the buffs you came prepared with (rotten bastards). In some of the longer quests, the House P buffs may simply not be enough...if I'm caught in a situation where I could nab a 20 point resist or nothing, I'll take the 20 pointer.

Spell Points:

589 Base
100 POP X (In the bank. Greensteel will make this higher, of course)
48 +6 Int item
16 +2 Int Tome (Not listed in the above build numbers)
30 +5 Wis Item

= 783, 833 w/ Wiz VI greensteel (not including further upgrades)


Another frustration I would have with the build is the hit points. Your hit points are too low to be considered a tank that can cast. Even with the AC you have (which is respectable), you're gonna get hit. My tank has 372 at 16 and I think that is too low. A good tank needs 450+ at 16 these days, IMO.

Jundak only has 413 hit points...he's never "needed" more than that.

Hit points:

200 Base
10 Argonessen Favor
30 GFL
19 Minos Legens
64 +6 Item and +2 tome
17 False Life Spell

= 340.

Not great hitpoints, but I've seen worse out there. Much worse. The ability to Blur and Displace on a whim (ASF is not a factor for these spells since there's no somantic component), increases her survivability beyond most tanks.

Minor issue, but why more skill in Jump than in Concentration? The ASF is already going to result in some wasted sp over the character's life, and having lower than the highest Concentration you could achieve exacerbates this problem.

Both skills are maxxed out. What you're seeing above is the skill + stat modifier in the final numbers. Higher Str means a higher Jump skill, is all. :)

ASF is a reality that I'm going to deal with. I knew it would be costly while levelling her up...when all of the equipment is in place, though, ASF won't be as much an issue.

Advantages I see with the build: you will be versatile for lower level content. So if you want bum around lower level adventure zones and the Harbor, this toon will never need a full group and may be able to solo quite a bit.

The build would likely be FAR more satisfying in a PNP environment, where the versatility would add a lot more value to a group, and the weaknesses may never show up, especially since you have a decent AC and Will Save. Mobs are much easier to take down in PnP and creative tactics are far more important. Example: levitate / fly.

No argument here. I just wanted to do something different...I hate cookie cutter builds, so I've no problems experimenting with something fun. Which Sioril is. :)

[Shyv]

A level of Paladin would have yielded no spell points whatsoever

Actualy it would have. For some reason when calculating sp you get some for paladin 1, as to the exact amount I would have to look it up.

That's why a cleric15/paladin 1 will have more sp than a cleric 15/fighter 1. Ron's character planner is wrong in this regard.

~~~~~EDIT~~~~~

Ok so I found what I was looking for.

And for the sp gaining from paladin level: you receive

(9 + YOUR_PALADIN_LEVEL ) * YOUR_WISDOM_MOD

So with your gear setup you would get 40 sp from the paladin level. Granted that would be behind the sp from the level of cleric, but would net you 2 more HP and the automatic +1 bab without burning up 2 AP for the clerical enhancement. Or you could take the same enhancement as a paladin so you would come out +1 ahead of the cleric unless you count the Divine Favor in which case it breaks even. However, using 10 sp every minute to keep DF up will be a burden on your SP pool.

[Jundak]

Hmmm...didn't know that. Good info, Shyv. :)

Well, considering the already tight spell pool, I think I'm happy with my choice. That extra 60 sp comes in handy, not to mention ALL divine wand usage and not just a select number. Extend is always running and Empower will most likely remain on, as well, when I finally take it...making those spell points a tad more critical to my play style.

The loss of one BAB doesn't hurt too bad. I've not had any problems smacking around elite mobs, so far. Without CE on, Sioril's attack bonus equal's Jundak's when he is in defensive mode...and he has no problems hitting elite Orthons with a +1 vorpal.

If someone wanted to take a level of Pally, instead of the cleric level you'd lose about 60 sp...but gain +1 BAB, +1 AC, and +2 hp. I can understand why someone might take the Pally level, but in my opinion, the spell points are much more important, overall.

Edit: The Pally level would actually grant me only 30 spell points per your formula: (9 +1 level) * 3 (Wis 16 Modifier) = 30

[Shyv]

Edit: The Pally level would actually grant me only 30 spell points per your formula: (9 +1 level) * 3 (Wis 16 Modifier) = 30

Yeah you're right.

I was in a hurry since I was downloading window patches. Had to format the rig and am busy loading things back onto it. :matrix:

[Rommalb]

One advantage the Cleric level has over Pally is that after Mod7 any scroll thats both arcane and divine he can cast as a divine version eliminating ASF entirely in that regard

[Jundak]

Also true...however, the caster level check may seriously suck for some of the better scrolls. :(

[Rommalb]

while not entirely relevant since you cant use it, I noticed while tweaking a friends PnP Spellsword that the Complete Arcane has a great feat for this kind of build. Practiced Spellcaster lets you add +4 to your Caster Level checks up to your Hit-die, essentially compensating for Fighter levels, go bug them on the main boards to add that feat in and you'd be golden

[Eldamir]

except Jundak doesn't exist on the DDO boards .. :)

[Jundak]

except Jundak doesn't exist on the DDO boards .. :)

So very true. :rofl:

[Jundak]

Working on an updated version of this build...

So far, I've created and tossed aside four seperate versions since my return to DDO, never making it past level 5. I keep thinking of crap that'll be overwhelming problems at end-game, so I'm making adjustments constantly to help improve AC, hp, sp, and overall survivability while trying to maintain the flavor and fun of the original (which just doesn't seem to be viable at all in the 16 to 20 range).

[Bunker]

Did not read all the comments, but glanced over the OP.

Did you consider going 1 bard instead of 1 cleric? That would still give you access to cure wands, UMD could be maxed out if one so wished, only down side is having only 1 bard spell vs. 3 cleric spells at a time. However, being that they are lvl 1, it isn't lke they will be of major use except for cure light wounds perhaps.

I guess seeing the title "Elven Spellsword", I was thinking bard from the get go.

[Jundak]

Did not read all the comments, but glanced over the OP.

Did you consider going 1 bard instead of 1 cleric? That would still give you access to cure wands, UMD could be maxed out if one so wished, only down side is having only 1 bard spell vs. 3 cleric spells at a time. However, being that they are lvl 1, it isn't lke they will be of major use except for cure light wounds perhaps.

I guess seeing the title "Elven Spellsword", I was thinking bard from the get go.

I think my original reason for not going Bard in this particular case was that because charisma is a dumpstat, I'd get far fewer spell points overall. I pumped points into Wisdom and took Iron Will to increase the Will save...just made sense to me, at the time, to nab Cleric for sp and access to all divine wands (Recitation, for example).

Back in my PnP days (2nd Edition), there was the Bladesinger class in the old Elven Handbook that always intrigued me and I was sorta shooting for that flavor. Bard would make a bit more sense from that perspective, methinks. So, yeah...that gives me a few ideas to work with. :)

I just finished an updated version that takes the build to level 20 with some tweakage. No Bard levels, but I think I might have finally put something viable together for end-game...and make other people who've not played with an arcane fighter scratch their collective heads (or laugh hysterically...take your pick). I'll be posting that one in a seperate thread, altogether.