Rogue Enhancements

[Coldin]

This is a thread I'm working on to post later in the week. I'll add to it as I go. If you guys have any thoughts, feel free to comment.


Well, a Mod is about to come and go...so time to make various suggestions about enhancements for rogues again. :)

I do have a slight issue with how rogue enhancements are set up right now. Basically, a rogue spends a bunch of enhancements for very little benefit.

Skill bonuses get obscenely expensive for very little payback. That's been like that forever, and really, most people ignore these enhancements at higher levels. But, now that's there's other Enhancements that require tier III of 2 or more of these enhancements, the costs really add up. And it's especially a problem for rogues because a good portion of their Enhancements are just skill boosts. A suggestion is to decrease tier III to 2 APs, and tier IV to 3 APs. It would make these skill enhancements much more accessible.

Trap Lore needs an adjustment. Monks now get a enhancement that gives 2 Resist to every element for just 1 AP. Rogues have to spend 5 APs just to equal that. And for 4 Resist, rogues have to spend 10 APs to the Monks 2. Not to mention that monks are also getting a bonus to saves vs traps, and a bonus to Haggle in the same enhancement as well. I don't really recommend nerfing the monk enhancement, and it does exclude taking any other Monk Animal Paths. But, I do recommend taking Rogue Trap Lore and combining them all together. Perhaps increase the cost to 2/4/6 APs.

I still think Sneak Attack Training should add an extra d6 instead of a flat bonus. +3 per level is nice and all, but doesn't really pack much a punch at higher levels. Instead of +12 damage on sneak attacks, you'd be looking at 4-28 damage. In the end, you'd be averaging about the same amount, but it'd be a bit more exciting.

Then there's some other enhancements rogues should get access to.

Rogues should certainly get the Armor Mastery enhancement. Make it available at Rogue 6, and make it advance 3 levels after the fighter's version.


More to come later...

[Vic]

Wow, good argument. I'd do it if I were a dev.

[Coldin]

Thanks Vic. Figure if I make this as good as I can, maybe some of it will get addressed by a Dev.

[Master of None]

You've certainly got a good point about the resists. I hadn't noticed that about the monk enhancements, but it certainly makes the rogue ones look sad. Does anyone ever take those, except maybe one for WotM? You'd think they'd have some data on which enhancements never get used and do something to tweak them.

The Way prereqs are pretty steep, but I suppose they should be as other classes' similar enhancements are as well. You could even make the case that it's an advantage to have the prereqs be other enhancements rather than feats, since you get more and they're easier to swap.

I do wish the DD requirement for wrack construct would go away (what am I going to do with DD III?), but I suppose that's wishful thinking. They'd probably just bump it up to 2 points per level if they did that.

Maybe the reduction in some of the other enhancement costs will balance some of this out; I haven't done the math to figure it out.

[Coldin]

You've certainly got a good point about the resists. I hadn't noticed that about the monk enhancements, but it certainly makes the rogue ones look sad. Does anyone ever take those, except maybe one for WotM? You'd think they'd have some data on which enhancements never get used and do something to tweak them.

The Way prereqs are pretty steep, but I suppose they should be as other classes' similar enhancements are as well. You could even make the case that it's an advantage to have the prereqs be other enhancements rather than feats, since you get more and they're easier to swap.

I do wish the DD requirement for wrack construct would go away (what am I going to do with DD III?), but I suppose that's wishful thinking. They'd probably just bump it up to 2 points per level if they did that.

Maybe the reduction in some of the other enhancement costs will balance some of this out; I haven't done the math to figure it out.

WOTM II does give an additional +2 resist for all elements, which is similar to the monk's Monkey path, except that WOTM costs 2 APs, DD III and OL III. It's not cheap by any means.

Sure, the Ways are offset by not needing feats to qualify for them, but when enhancements tend to do more than standard feats ever could, spending APs on simple skill boosts becomes a bit of a waste. It would actually be nice if certain feats would allow rogues to bypass some skill enhancement requirements. For instance, nimble fingers would allow a rogue to not have to take the DD II and OL II portions to qualify for the WOTM.

Btw, having WOTM I will allow you to qualify for Wrack Construct III. Unfortunately, you still need DD III to get WOTM II.

For Mod 7, only 1 line of enhancements actually had their costs reduced. That was Sneak Attack Accuracy. Of course, that should have only been a 1/2/3/4 line all along, since it only worked when a rogue was getting sneak attacks. Really though, if you only took up to SAA II, you're only netting 1 additional to-hit bonus for the decreased cost, assuming you're spending all 6 APs in the SAA line.

The main problem with rogue skill enhancements I see, is that you're paying so many APs for a small boost to abilities. Compare that with mages who get +40% to spell damage, and decent chances to crit spells for the same cost it takes rogues to get +12 to sneak attack damage and +4 to attacks. It's not very balanced basically.

[Master of None]

WOTM II does give an additional +2 resist for all elements, which is similar to the monk's Monkey path, except that WOTM costs 2 APs, DD III and OL III. It's not cheap by any means.

Sure, the Ways are offset by not needing feats to qualify for them, but when enhancements tend to do more than standard feats ever could, spending APs on simple skill boosts becomes a bit of a waste. It would actually be nice if certain feats would allow rogues to bypass some skill enhancement requirements. For instance, nimble fingers would allow a rogue to not have to take the DD II and OL II portions to qualify for the WOTM.

I like that idea. Giving more options is always good. As for the Way lines, the one that seems really out of whack is WotM II. If you already have DD III and OL III, do you really need another +2? The +2 elemental resist is weak, and the benefits seem far short of those granted by the second level of assassin or thief-acrobat, which is particularly easy to get as it only requires an enhancement that many people will take anyway (rogue dex III) as opposed to the other two which have prereqs which are not as helpful outside of qualifying for the Way line. I didn't see how WotM I was really worth the points it required, and WotM II seems even worse.

For Mod 7, only 1 line of enhancements actually had their costs reduced. That was Sneak Attack Accuracy. Of course, that should have only been a 1/2/3/4 line all along, since it only worked when a rogue was getting sneak attacks. Really though, if you only took up to SAA II, you're only netting 1 additional to-hit bonus for the decreased cost, assuming you're spending all 6 APs in the SAA line.

The main problem with rogue skill enhancements I see, is that you're paying so many APs for a small boost to abilities. Compare that with mages who get +40% to spell damage, and decent chances to crit spells for the same cost it takes rogues to get +12 to sneak attack damage and +4 to attacks. It's not very balanced basically.

I think a more reasonable comparison would be to other fighting enhancements, such as racial weapon enhancements. 1 ap for +3 sneak attack damage seems like a pretty good deal compared with 2 ap for +1 damage for one weapon or weapon type. Anyway, as a rogue I don't feel my main problem is how much damage I can do when sneak attacking, my problem is with things that can't be sneak-attacked. At a point, more sneak damage just means pulling aggro that much faster, though with the diplomacy change that may not matter much. Constant sneak attacks...:wootdance:

[Shamguard]

One enhancement or feat that would have been nice is some form of "Hide in plain sight". The mobs already have this, ie Hobgoblin assassins and rogues in Tangleroot and Cerlian (sp?) Hills.
It would be a nice way to improve the usefulness of hide and move silent.

Personaly I look at the whole enhancement thing just like I do equipment. They are nice little bonuses to our abilities but shouldn't be the core of a build. Skill ranks and feats are the core of any build with enhancemnets and equipment being used to tweek a build in a particular direction.

The rogue enhancements as a whole are weak, but then again the DDO implementation for rogue is weak. One of a rogue's greatest strengths (in PnP) is the ability to sneak and retrive an item without having to fight for it.
DDO has made it imposible to complete most quests without killing at least a boss monster of some kind. They have also made it so to open doors, pull leavers, or open a chest takes you out of sneak mode. In other words they have reduced sneaking to a meh skill. So we are left with a light attack unit that can dish out a lots of damage, remove hazards, and unlock items.

If they were to give us a "Hide in plain sight" ability it would at least return some of the usefulness of sneaking, so we could at least have a chance of using our sneak mode after we open a door or chest.

.....

[Coldin]

I like that idea. Giving more options is always good. As for the Way lines, the one that seems really out of whack is WotM II. If you already have DD III and OL III, do you really need another +2? The +2 elemental resist is weak, and the benefits seem far short of those granted by the second level of assassin or thief-acrobat, which is particularly easy to get as it only requires an enhancement that many people will take anyway (rogue dex III) as opposed to the other two which have prereqs which are not as helpful outside of qualifying for the Way line. I didn't see how WotM I was really worth the points it required, and WotM II seems even worse.



I think a more reasonable comparison would be to other fighting enhancements, such as racial weapon enhancements. 1 ap for +3 sneak attack damage seems like a pretty good deal compared with 2 ap for +1 damage for one weapon or weapon type. Anyway, as a rogue I don't feel my main problem is how much damage I can do when sneak attacking, my problem is with things that can't be sneak-attacked. At a point, more sneak damage just means pulling aggro that much faster, though with the diplomacy change that may not matter much. Constant sneak attacks...:wootdance:

Very true about WOTM. I kinda see WOTM I has a decent way of saving some APs. It was a bit more useful back when traps were a little more iffy to disable. But right now, I can get every trap in the game, save the Cabal trap. I was actually able to even search it out with just WOTM I and Search I. WOTM I would be a bit more useful if the Iron Companion enhancements were more useful as well. But as it stands right now, WOTM is just a flavor thing.

As for +3 damage on sneak attacks. I actually do feel it's much better than before. I just prefer it was adding a d6 instead of a flat bonus. The one thing though that a racial weapon bonus has over sneak attack bonuses are though, is that it still works against constructs and undead. If a rogue goes into a quest filled with those, he's essentially walking around with 1-10 unspent APs.

@Sham

Yep, sneaking skill is pretty worthless. Even in the situations where a rogue could save the group a fight, generally that option robs the group a chest, or xp, or something else. Or fighting is just plain quicker.

One key example:
In Ghola Fan, there's a crest that needs to be retrieved from the wildmen prison. You can sneak in, pull the switch, and all the ogres will run out to fight the escaping wildmen. Then you can sneak in, grab the crest, and sneak in. But since sneaking is so slow, most groups would just prefer to run in, and just fight the ogres than trying to use the smarter path.

Another example:
In the Abbot Pre-raid, the path to the Beholder. There's a door that can be unlocked, saving the group a fight, and some time walking to another area. BUT, since there's a chest over where the key is, no group would willing skip the key, UNLESS they thought they might die from the encounter.

Soloing, a rogue's sneaking skill can be pretty useful. Things like levers, doors, ect do make that much much harder, but it's a party dynamic that makes it impossible. And Turbine has yet to really account for that in designing their quests.

[Coldin]

Well, continuing the list of enhancements....


Rogues should certainly get the Armor Mastery enhancement. Make it available at Rogue 6, and make it advance 3 levels after the fighter's version. Basically, rogues are supposed to be agile fighters. It only makes sense that after enough experience fighting in armor, they'd be able to move more fluidly in it. Basically, since Fighters get it, rogues should get it too.

Rogue Mobility. I really don't get why rogues didn't have this from day 1. When you think of a hard to hit, tumbling character, you think of a rogue. If a rogue invests in the mobility feat, they should get access to a mobility line of enhancements. In this case, I'd say match it up exactly as the Fighter version.

Toughness. Ok, this enhancement is overpowered to start with. But, to balance it out, d6 HD characters should have access to a similar line. So, if a rogue takes the toughness feat, then they can take a line of enhancements to bring themselves closer to the Fighters. Toughness I could grant 5 HP. Toughness II would grant another 5 HP, Toughness III would give 10 HP, and Toughness IV would give another 10 HP. Altogether, it'd be 30 extra HP. Not as great as the Fighter's toughness, but only 20 HP less, compared to a full 50 HP, just for not being a fighter.

Scroll and Wand Mastery. Bards get it. Rogues should get it too.

[Coldin]

(I've decided to change my post to cover more than just enhancements for rogues. So, I'll cover some improvements to feats as well.)

Improved Feint

With the changes to Bluff, and to a lesser extent Diplomacy, Improved Feint's usefulness has been greatly marginalized. For just a bit of background, here's the SRD descriptions of a Feint (our Standard Bluff in DDO) and Improved Feint.

Feinting is a standard action. To feint, make a Bluff check opposed by a Sense Motive check by your target. The target may add his base attack bonus to this Sense Motive check. If your Bluff check result exceeds your target’s Sense Motive check result, the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). This attack must be made on or before your next turn.

When feinting in this way against a nonhumanoid you take a -4 penalty. Against a creature of animal Intelligence (1 or 2), you take a -8 penalty. Against a nonintelligent creature, it’s impossible.

Feinting in combat does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

With the Improved Feint feat, you can attempt a feint as a move action instead of as a standard action.

Basically, a normal Feint will allow a player to make a sneak attack every other round, where Improved Feint allows a player to sneak attack every round.

Now, let's look at the current cooldowns. Bluff has a cooldown of 8 seconds. Improved Feint has a cooldown of 8 seconds. Already, Improved Feint is 2 seconds behind. Improved Feint does get the added bonus of being an AOE, but Diplomacy can do that, plus it has a quicker cooldown and no animation time.

Considering Improved Feint costs a feat to take, plus a pre-requisite feat and a 13 Int, it's in serious need of improvements. There's a couple options that I think you could take.

First option is to reduce the cooldown of Improved Feint to 3-4 seconds. That would fall more in line with how often it can be used in PnP. That's not really my preferred implementation though.

A second option is to make Improved Feint do a Deception effect against monsters. That is, when a Bluff check succeeds with Improved Feint, the monster becomes vulnerable to sneak attacks for a period of time. This could stay an AOE or not. This is what I recommend as it give Improved Feint a decent bit of power, and give rogues a reason to invest in the feat.

[Coldin]

Iron Companions

Let's first focus on the enhancements as they stand right now. For the most part, I think they work great. They're a very useful thing to bring along, in level appropriate content. There are a large variety of ways to attain them, and they are fairly cheap in APs.

If would make a suggestion about actually obtaining these lines, it would be to allow the Steel Defender, and the Mithral Defender enhancements to be taken without taking the Iron Defender. Now, I don't mean for no additional cost.

For instance, Iron Companion requires Fighter Repair II. Well, lets say the player no longer has any use for the basic Iron Companion, but still uses his Steel Companion. Well, instead of having to purchase Repair II and Iron Defender first, instead he could purchase Fighter Repair III and skip right to the Steel Defender. He'd still be spending APs, just on a different initial purpose.

Or, take Way of the Mechanic. The first line lets you have access to the Iron Defender. Well, I suggest that with Way of the Mechanic II, you can take the Mithral Defender enhancement. By level 12, the Iron Defender and Steel Defender don't stand a chance in level-appropriate quests. So, being able to avoid the extra costs for them would be a nice bonus to Mechanic rogues.

[Coldin]

Posted up a couple things on the DDO forums. Feel free to add some comments over there.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=149668

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=1743910#post1743910

[Shyv]

Coldin the rogue enhancement post is well written and well put. I'm just afraid it's going to get lost in Codogs thread with all of the crap that's rolling around in there. Maybe make yourself your own thread?

[Coldin]

Coldin the rogue enhancement post is well written and well put. I'm just afraid it's going to get lost in Codogs thread with all of the crap that's rolling around in there. Maybe make yourself your own thread?

I might, when I have a few more things to add.

[Eldamir]

I might be indirectly responsible if Coldin's rogue post gets lost in the straw lining of the Dog House .. I called some idiot out on his lack of grammar and what not after he accused me of not reading his (sorta) post. Which has resulted in everyone flaming Coldin for commenting back at the butthead :D

[Coldin]

I might be indirectly responsible if Coldin's rogue post gets lost in the straw lining of the Dog House .. I called some idiot out on his lack of grammar and what not after he accused me of not reading his (sorta) post. Which has resulted in everyone flaming Coldin for commenting back at the butthead :D

Funny, I only saw one person flaming back at me for my comment. The smarter people agree with me. :)

[Coldin]

Figures, I post my ideas up 1 thread at a time, and I actually get responses back. I guess people just don't like sorting through a vast amount of suggestions to make a response.

[Xaearth]

Nah, it's just so many people on the DDO forums have me on their shit-list that they're trying to find somewhere that I slip up so they can report me.
So all I have to do is post, they read my post, go "Awww crap, nothing to report yet again" then get bored and read your OP, it's win-win :D.

Seriously... I dunno how many times people have necro'd 4 month old posts of mine... and I've only been around for a year :D.

[Coldin]

Nah, it's just so many people on the DDO forums have me on their shit-list that they're trying to find somewhere that I slip up so they can report me.

Seriously... I dunno how many times people have necro'd 4 month old posts of mine... and I've only been around for a year :D.

Paranoid much, Xaearth? :)

[Xaearth]

Paranoid much, Xaearth? :)

Hey, don't forget now, I'm a semi-legend on the DDO forums...
I got MysticTheurge to curse and call me a gimp!

[Shyv]

Figures, I post my ideas up 1 thread at a time, and I actually get responses back. I guess people just don't like sorting through a vast amount of suggestions to make a response.

It's all about the attention span. If the thread is more than 3 pages or the OP is really long most people won't bother reading it over there regardless of how well it's presented.

[Shamguard]

Hey, don't forget now, I'm a semi-legend on the DDO forums...
I got MysticTheurge to curse and call me a gimp!


I don't know why, but after reading several of MT's posts I got this image of a 12 year old boy, sitting in a room full of D&D books, dice and minitures. With no one to play with becasue he is such a rules lawyer.

Either that or a thirtysomething man in his mom's attic.

Though the two are interchangable.


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