Rogue Help

[Jules]

Skitty is 20k from lvl 11 and has 4 Action points. She is 8 Rog/ 1 Wiz/ 1 Ftr
Her stats & skills are below:

HP 97 (with lesser false life item)
SP 225

Str 11
Dex 17 (1 inherent)
Con 12 (2 from item)
Int 18
Wis 11
Cha 12

DD 21 base - with gloves 31
OL 19 base - with gloves 29
Search 22 base with goggles 29
Spot 16 base (usually have the bat which gives 5 - also have equiped ring for +10) so usually 26

Feats:
Dragonmark of Shadow
Manyshot
Rapid shot
Quicken
Weapon Focus Ranged Weapons
Point Blank Shot

Enhancements:
Skills boost 3rd level
Arcane fluidity (1 only)
Arcanum (1 only)
Ranged Attack 1
Ranged Damage 1
Critical Accuracy 1
Arcane Archer 1
Sneak attack training 1
Way of Mechanic
DD 2
OL 2
Rogue Search 2
Rogue Spot 1
Energy of Scholar
Improved trap sense 1

These are without buffs and include items, but I've detailed those. Now my question - I know you have to have some very high skill points to do the Cabal on Elite (the highest in game iirc) - which is needed more - search/spot/dd?

Do I need to completely re-work her or will she be viable in the high end content - haven't had her out to GH or anything higher yet. I'm willing to drop the dragonmark for something else - but not the manyshot or arcane archer - its too useful for her. I also hardly every use all my spell points so those enhancement can go the way of the dodo if necessary.

I definately want to take the wrack constructs (or however its spelled) but thats only 1 ap - still have 3 - which will be needed more search/spot/ OL or DD? I rarely fail any dd - sometimes finding them may take 2 or 3 tries - but not often.

Thanks for any suggestions
Jules

[Eldamir]

If you're having trouble *finding* the trap, there are a couple of things you can do to shore that skill up.
1) get and use an INT item when searching (a +6 item is +3 to Search and DD)
2) get a planar gird (or carry around a wizard/sorc to give you GH :D) - +4 to Search and DD there
3) get a better Search item - looks like you've only got a +7 item right now. +10's and +11's are pretty easy to find, Race Restricted +13's are significantly more difficult to find, but are out there -- that's +3 to +6 more
3) take Elven Perception - stacks with the Search bonus from Rogue Search and the cost is 1/2/3/4 for the various levels so the first 2, at least, are worth the cost.
4) switch the DragonMark for Skill Focus: Search

to recap: that's
+1-3 - Int Item (to max it, get a +6 RR item)
+4 - GH
+3-6 - Search Item (to max this, get a +13 RR item)
+1-4 - Elven Perception
+3
===
+12 to +20 improvment (+41 to +49 total search)

According to Impaqt's guide (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=143462) (used to be cforces) you'll need a search of between 44 and 48 to be good to go on elite in the GH.

Search<44? (traps)/ 45-48 (secret doors) VoN 4 secret door has been reported as 45-48 DC on Elite. Second highest trap (after Cabal) in Gianthold has not been discussed veyr much, but SableShadow has been steadily pushing the envelope and hasn't run into trouble with a Search of 44.

[Jules]

Is it the search that needs to be the highest or the Disable - I kinda of thought it was the search part as opposed to the the disable on the Cabal quest.

The search hasn't really been a problem, but I want to feel confident going into the higher end content. She is my first rogue and all - would rather get it right the first time.

As to the search - I just picked up the helm that gives the +10 search so that will be covered.

Jules

[Shyv]

*Cabal Trap*
Editorial: This trap guards a single chest, and has DCs on Elite that are silly-high enough that your party won't expect you to be able to disarm it -- all they lose is a chest, and the DCs are simply too high for all but the most trap-optimized builds to achieve.
Disable Device:75-76 DC.
Search: <= 56 DC Has been found after recent update with as low as a 56 Search, but may be yet lower.

[Shyv]

Impaqts whole post for you to look over.

Guide: Key Rogue Skills

Welcome to the Continueing Rogue Skill Guide. As CForce takes a Break from the game, I'll be maintaining this guide. Just as before, If you have confirmed information, or just a question, feel free to post it here or send me a PM. I hope to maintain this list as well as CForce did.

Most of you know me as a Cleric. Many also know my second choice has always been Rogue. I was a consistant contributor to the original list and love tinkering with game mechanics and optimizing builds for specific tasks.

The Original Guide can be Found Here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=51829)
------------

Introduction
This guide is a consolidation of answers to some frequently asked questions about the 'big 4' rogue skills (Disable/Open/Search/Spot), including:
- How can I boost my skills?
- How high do Trap/Secret Door/Lock DC's go?
...and other assorted questions that frequently come up in the rogue forum. What I *won't* try to do here is exhaustively document the DC of every trap, door, and lock at different difficulty levels; that's simply too hard to keep up-to-date when those values occasionally change!
I try to keep most of what is presented here as 'just the facts', but will include a few editorial comments, which I will call out to distinguish from the factual data. Editorial comments will be in italics.

Ranks
I won't get into build recommendations too much here, but I will give this one -- if you're a pure rogue, keep max ranks in Disable Device, Open Locks, Search, and Spot (level+3 ranks). If you're a multiclass, you may be doing some optimization and let a few skills lag behind, but I'd recommend trying to keep close to maxed as a multi-class, too. When people let one of these four skills fall behind, it is typically Spot that is the first to go -- with repeated runs through quests, rote memorization of trap locations can sometimes (but not always!) be substituted for a high Spot score.
Impaqt's Note: While Spot is a Reasonable skill to let slide a bit, I prefer Open Lock. The Open Lock Marks in the game can easily be acheived without max ranks. Especially on a High Dex Build.

Current max ranks for lvl 16 character: 19.

Items
Note: Only the highest item bonus of a particular type will apply amongst items you have equipped.
Randomly generated items give +1/3/5/7/10/11/13/15 to any skill. Some named items also give a small "Luck" bonus, which will stack with an item bonus. +17 RR items should be able to drop as well, but no one has reported any at this time.

See This Thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=121279) for a detailed inventory of known static/unique items in the game, and where they can be found.
Some Highlights from that thread for rogues would be:
Stone of Good Luck: +1 Luck Bonus to all Skills
Head of Good Fortune: +2 Luck Bonus to all Skills
Ventilated Bracers: +3 to Disable Device (Stacks with other items)

It's reasonable to assume that you can find/buy a +13 item for nearly any skill on your way to level 14, with sufficient time spent browsing the auction house. So, for those following along at home, we've got a base of 32 points -- 19 ranks + 13 item bonus -- that will be relatively achievable by nearly any rogue build. Even many of the multiclasses with only a few levels of rogue can usually find a way to get in this neighborhood.

Tools
I advocate working on your Free Agents favor early, as the purchasable tools give you a *significant* guaranteed boost to Disable Device and Open Lock.

Rusty Theives' Tools: no bonus
Theives' Tools: +1 Open and Disable**
Masterwork Thieves' Tools: +2 Open and Disable**
+1 Thieves' Tools: +3 Open and Disable***
+2 Thieves' Tools: +4 Open and Disable***
+3 Thieves' Tools: +5 Open and Disable****
+4 Thieves' Tools: +6 Open and Disable****
+5 Thieves' Tools: +7 Open and Disable

** - purchasable from a vendor
*** - purchasable from Free Agents rep at first rank
**** - purchasable from Free Agents rep at second rank

So long as you make sure to hit Free Agents quests on your way to 14, you're now tracking to a 'guaranteed' total of +38 for Disable and Open rolls, and 32 for Search and Spot, before making any significant build decisions. Add in an unlimited supply of Heroism potions (easy enough to afford by level 16), and you're working with a base of 40/34 before making build decisions.

Tradeoffs
Here's where things start getting interesting, with different builds going in different directions. Simply having max ranks, upgrading your equipment when you can, and getting Free Agent Favor/Heroism potions will enable you to be sucessful with 90% of the game's content on Normal. To expect to have success on Elite, some additional investment will need to be made in the form of feats, enhancements, good ability scores, and buffs from other players.

Feats
All feats stack.
Nimble Fingers - +2 Open, +2 Disable
Alertness - +2 Spot (and Listen)
Skill Focus: "*" - +3 to * (Disable/Open/Search/Spot)
Lesser Mark of Warding: Race Required-Dwarf. +2 Search + Opens up Dwarven Search Enhancments

Enhancements
Class Enhancements stack with Race enhancements, but not with other Class enhancements. In fact, you generally can't take similar enhancements from two different classes - for example, the Rogue Skill Seach enhancement, when taken, will prevent you from selecting the Ranger Skill Search enhancement.

Rogue/Skill [Disable/Open/Search/Spot] I/II/III/IV - +1/2/3/4 to Disable, Open, Search, or Spot
Rogue/Skill Boost I/II/III/IV - +2/3/4/5 to all skills (but unlikely to be used for Spot), 20 seconds, 5/rest(Does Not stack with Human Versatility)
Rogue/Way of the Mechanic - +2 to Disable/Open/Search/Spot (and Repair)

Ranger/Skill [Search/Spot] I/II/III/IV - +1/2/3/4 to Spot or Search
Ranger/Skill Boost I/II/III/IV - +2/3/4/5 to all skills (but unlikely to be used for Spot), 20 seconds, 5/rest

Drow/Skill [Search/Spot] I/II/III/IV - +1/2/3/4 to Search and/or Spot
Dwarf/Skill Search I/II/III/IV - +1/2/3/4 to Search
Elf/Skill [Search/Spot] I/II/III/IV - +1/2/3/4 to Search and/or Spot
Human/Human Versatility I/II/III/IV - +2/3/4/5 to all skills (but unlikely to be used for Spot), 20 seconds, 5/rest(DOes not stack with Rogue Skill Boost)

Attributes
Int modifier: +modifier to Disable, Search
Dex modifier: +modifier to Open
Wis modifier: +modifier to Spot

Innate Racial Bonuses
Drow: +2 Search and Spot
Elf: +2 Search and Spot
Dwarf: +2 Search

Buffs
(In most cases these will come from outside sources.)
Competence bonus:
Bard/Inspire Competence: +2 all skills (never self-applicable)
Morale bonuses (do not stack with each other):
Heroism/Good Hope: +2 all skills (note that Heroism is 'assumed' above form a potion as a starting base)
Greater Heroism: +4 all skills
Luck Bonus:
Cleric/ Prayer Spell. Does Not Stack w/ Other Luck bonus' Also Available Via Scroll.

High Water Marks
How high do DC's go? This frequently changes, and all the numbers here should be taken as "what the community currently thinks they are", and not absolute gospel. While I keep track of new observations that folks post on the forums (as well as my own experiences), there's no guarantee that some of these haven't been changed, nor that people haven't occasionally made mistakes while gathering data. But, to my knowledge, it represents the best data the community has on the different values.

*Cabal Trap*
Editorial: This trap guards a single chest, and has DCs on Elite that are silly-high enough that your party won't expect you to be able to disarm it -- all they lose is a chest, and the DCs are simply too high for all but the most trap-optimized builds to achieve.
Disable Device:75-76 DC.
Search: <= 56 DC Has been found after recent update with as low as a 56 Search, but may be yet lower.

*Everything Else*
Disable Device: somewhere greater than a 57 modifier for 0% chance of blowing traps. Foundation of Discord trap with DC at least 62, possibly higher.*** Confirmed FAILURE on Rainbow in the Dard ELite Lightning Traps by the Optional Chest on a Roll of 65 (64+1)***
Open Locks: +39-48 modifier. Locked door in Fleshmaker's Lab, has been failed on a total 58, and succeeded on a total 68.
Search<44? (traps)/ 45-48 (secret doors) VoN 4 secret door has been reported as 45-48 DC on Elite. Second highest trap (after Cabal) in Gianthold has not been discussed veyr much, but SableShadow has been steadily pushing the envelope and hasn't run into trouble with a Search of 44.
Spot: >>39 39 Was not enough to spot traps in Rainbow in the Dark on Hard.

* - I use 'modifier' rather than 'skill' on Open and Disable because the Tools contribution will not be reflected on your character sheet when you look at your skill tab, but will only be added into the modifier at the time of the die roll. Note that also due to the die rolls, I've cited modifiers below the DC's -- in the case of open locks, you can reroll until you get a 20. In the case of disable device, you can reroll until you get (DC - 5) or lower, at which point the trap blows, so a modifier 5 under the DC will always get you the trap eventually. Slightly off-topic, but important to know: you will use whichever tools are "first" - ie, top left corner, first inventory tab is your 'first inventory slot'.

CForce's Editorial: Must you meet all of these DC's with your build? No. These numbers are listed more as a reference to know when to quit raising a score!

Can you decide to try and build with getting 100% success on all these DCs? It's certainly possible with some builds, but requires a heavy feat and enhancement commitment. Like every build decision, it's a trade-off. What I'd suggest is to look for which ways you can most efficiently raise your scores with enhancements. The most action-point-efficient ways are with Rogue Skills Boost and Way of the Mechanic. (Although Way of the Mechanic comes with a fair amount of prereqs -- you may be taking most of them already!) Early levels of skill-specific enhancements are cheap, but by the time you get to level IV, getting another +1 to all 4 scores requires 16 AP, a *huge* cost! As with any build, decide what your goals are, and what tradeoffs you want to make to achieve those goals.

A common refrain on the Rogue forums is, "you should build your rogue with at least 14 INT," but I disagree with conventional wisdom on this point. I'd certainly recommend building your rogue to have good skills relative to the "Everything Else" DCs listed above. Higher INT is *one* way to do that, but not the only way! For example, I can imagine a hypothetical Dwarven Rogue who start with (gasp) INT 8! He takes 17 ranks of the 'big 4', Skill Focus: Search, Skill Focus: Disable, Nimble Fingers, Rogue Skill Search IV, Rogue Skill Disable IV, Rogue Skill Boost IV, Way of the Mechanic, and Dwarven Skill Search IV. For search, starting with the 30 'assumed' from above, he's got an additional +17 (counting the boost, and the -1 INT penalty) for 47 total. For disable, he's got the 38 'assumed' from above, and an additional +15 (again, counting the boost and the -1 INT penalty), for +53 total. Only a Greater Heroism and Rabbit Gloves away from safely handling all content except the Cabal Trap, with an INT of 8? Now, would I want to play a build like this? Nope. Point is, don't simply start with a high INT because folks say you should; start with the combination of INT, feats, and enhancements you need to be comfortable with your skills.

Hopefully this information has been helpful. If you see anything missing or incorrect, either post to this thread or send me a PM, and I'll take a look and make additions and corrections. Happy tinkering!

[Eldamir]

Everyone complains about the Search on the Cabal trap because that's stupidly high. But since they don't find it in the first place, most folks don't know to complain about the insanely high DD (75+ I think) needed for it.

If you're not shooting for the Cabal Trap, a high 40's Search and Mid 50's DD should serve you well for most things (elite vale stuff not withstanding - I think those are mostly in the 60's)

[Coldin]

As long as you have maxed ranks, a good skill boosting item, and few enhancements spent towards trap finding, you'll be fine. Also remember that you can wand whip a foxes cunning if you're short a couple points.

I actually suggest spending a couple points in the various trap lores. They're good for shrugging off small amounts of damage. Electric Trap lore is nice for those gnoll archers that have shocking arrows, and acid is good for the occasional melf's or acid rain.

[Shyv]

Everyone complains about the Search on the Cabal trap because that's stupidly high. But since they don't find it in the first place, most folks don't know to complain about the insanely high DD (75+ I think) needed for it.

If you're not shooting for the Cabal Trap, a high 40's Search and Mid 50's DD should serve you well for most things (elite vale stuff not withstanding - I think those are mostly in the 60's)

Yeah i said screw it on my rogue.

Kill first, traps second. But then again my cleric is kill first, heal second. I'm detecting a pattern.:angel:

[Coldin]

Everyone complains about the Search on the Cabal trap because that's stupidly high. But since they don't find it in the first place, most folks don't know to complain about the insanely high DD (75+ I think) needed for it.

If you're not shooting for the Cabal Trap, a high 40's Search and Mid 50's DD should serve you well for most things (elite vale stuff not withstanding - I think those are mostly in the 60's)

I found that Cabal trap on elite, and still managed to blow it up. :)

So really, don't ever concern yourself over it. Groups will never expect you to disable it.

Now, I do have another +3 to my DD skill, so I could potentially disable now, but I still kinda doubt it.

[Eldamir]

Level's sitting on a +58 DD and +51 search all buffed up. Typically, though, he's more in the +52 DD and +48 search range because I don't bother with my Int ring or Reaver gauntlets very often.

But then, I've moved almost all my APs out of the skill increases - like Shiv, my characters are kill first! kind of guys :) I only have Rogue Disable I, Elven Perception I and Rogue Search I for skill boosting enhancements these days..

[Coldin]

Coldin has a mix of all the enhancements, except he does have WOTM II. I don't really need it, but it's not like there's anything better to take.

[Shyv]

But then, I've moved almost all my APs out of the skill increases - like Shiv, my characters are kill first! kind of guys :) I only have Rogue Disable I, Elven Perception I and Rogue Search I for skill boosting enhancements these days..

I will be honest and say that my rogue is in a bit of a limbo at the moment. I was getting ready to spec him into WotA2 and stunning blow. But I've heard some BAD things about WotA2, so to be honest I'm really unsure of how to advance at the moment. :banghead2:

So with that lahh laahhh lahhha llhaaaaa...rogue what?

Time to play the WF barb!!!! No question of purpose there!!!:tt2:

[Eldamir]

I'm actually pretty happy with Level at the moment, so he'll probably stay fairly static for a while .. although I'll probably build some GS goggles for him eventually - after I get both of Anjila's Khopeshes (khopeshi?) done, of course!.