Gearing up for Epics.

[Coldin]

List of stats and equipment for moorewr. Just writing down what they wear in combat.

Coldin:

Str: 17 (10 base + 1 tome + 6 item)
Dex: 28 (19 base + 3 tome + 3 feat + 4 item)
Con: 24 (14 base + 3 tome + 1 feat + 6 item)
Int: 28 (17 base + 3 tome + 2 feat + 6 item)
Wis: 8
Cha: 16 (14 base + 2 tome)


Goggles: Neg-Neg greensteel. Mostly for immunities and lack of anything better
Helm: Minos (duh)
Necklace: Silver Flame Talisman
Trinket: Head of Good Fortune
Cloak: Epic Cloak of Night
Belt: Belt of Brute Strength
Rings: Int +6, Con +6
Gloves: Backstabber Gloves
Boots: Madstone Boots
Bracers: Windhowler Bracers
Armor: Dragontouched - Resistance +5, Magma Surge, Earthgrab Gaurd.

[moorewr]

Coldin is purely repeaters, right? I'm just not much of an authority on ranged combat.

Partial BAB, finesse, ranged.. it's not looking good. I'd guess you'd want to use a lot of curse-spewing, destruction, and shattermantle effect repeaters to have any effect at all. Probably not an optimal build for epics, although if you can hit >55 search and >50 Disable device you can help with epic content that has traps.

[Coldin]

Oh, he has traps. Nothing to worry there. :)

And yeah, pure ranged build now.

[Coldin]

Taikai (In wind stance)

Str: 18 (12 base + 6 item)
Dex: 34 (21 base + 2 tome + 1 feat + 10 enhancement)
Con: 20 (14 base + 2 tome + 4 enhancement)
Int: 13 (12 base + 1 tome)
Wis: 26 (16 base + 1 tome + 3 feat + 6 item)
Cha: 8


Goggles: Blindness ward, spot +11
Helm: Minos (duh again)
Necklace: Oremi's Necklace (+6 con, enhanced Ki)
Trinket: Dusk heart
Cloak: Epic Cloak of Night
Belt: +6 Strength
Rings: Chattering Ring, Wisdom +6, Concentration +7
Gloves: Dex +6
Boots: Striding 30%
Bracers: Armor +7
Armor: Icy Rainment

[moorewr]

Taikai (In wind stance)

Str: 18 (12 base + 6 item)
Dex: 34 (21 base + 2 tome + 1 feat + 10 enhancement)
Con: 20 (14 base + 2 tome + 4 enhancement)
Int: 13 (12 base + 1 tome)
Wis: 26 (16 base + 1 tome + 3 feat + 6 item)
Cha: 8


Goggles: Blindness ward, spot +11
Helm: Minos (duh again)
Necklace: Oremi's Necklace (+6 con, enhanced Ki)
Trinket: Dusk heart
Cloak: Epic Cloak of Night
Belt: +6 Strength
Rings: Chattering Ring, Wisdom +6, Concentration +7
Gloves: Dex +6
Boots: Striding 30%
Bracers: Armor +7
Armor: Icy Rainment

Looks like a solid set-up. Icy and chattering ring are better for AC than weesham has. Does he normally have CE on? You'd switch it off in epic unless you were kiting/managing aggro.

When you spec in stunning fist, the DC should be solid. What are his self-buffed AC and to-hits?

EDIT: just confirms to me that Taikai is your Epic go-to character once he has stunning fist.

[Coldin]

Yeah. Taikai is my best character really, hands down.

sans buffs
AC (with CE) : 61
To-hit (without CE): 38

Don't know why the to-hit seems so low. Note, I do have halfling cunning, so +4 when flanking.

[moorewr]

Yeah. Taikai is my best character really, hands down.

sans buffs
AC (with CE) : 61
To-hit (without CE): 38

Don't know why the to-hit seems so low. Note, I do have halfling cunning, so +4 when flanking.

Good numbers. Your best-case AC is huge.. +5 Barkskin, +5 Paladin Aura, +1 haste, +6 Uncanny Dogde, +5 CE.. situationally that's plenty.

What handwraps are you wearing? No insight item, looks like, no surprise there.

[Coldin]

No insight item. No place to fit it in so far. Can't get uncanny dodge since he's a monk. :)

And the AC I posted included CE.

[moorewr]

"oh."

[Coldin]

Best Case AC:

56
5 (CE)
5 (Barkskin)
1 (Shield of Faith)
4 (Inspire Heroics)
5 (Paladin Aura)
1 (Haste)
=

77 (or thereabouts)

So, not the mythical 80, but getting close. Could be higher if I ever get a couple ToD rings and can put Insight on one.

[JayDubya]

In my experience, you can't count on a paladin hanging out next to you, and a lot of non-raid epics either have no bard or no ranger.

The good news, for what it's worth - you forgot Recitation. Also, barkskin pots for when you're w/out a ranger in the group. If you have any UMD (I assume not), 5-minute or 10-minute shield wands are handy as well.

Also, did you do the armor ritual on your Icys?

Lastly, if you're trying for situational AC, consider a greensteel kama if you're light-side, or a greensteel shortsword if you're a ninja spy.

One other thing - if you're a ninja spy, your 25% incorporeality stacks with everything, and I don't know of any monsters that have Ghost Touch.

[moorewr]

I'm curious about light v. dark in epics. I know light monks are far more in demand in endgame raiding.

[Coldin]

Taikai would be light side. I've been procrastinating on switching him over to Shintao though because the attacks are a bit broken with Unarmed TWF.

I haven't put the alchemical rituals on the icy's because I've never managed to get all the ingredients for it.

[moorewr]

I like that jade prison thing. It's a nice shade of green...

[Coldin]

I really like the jade attacks myself. It's too bad they're only effective on undead and evil outsiders. It's worse though they don't get off-hand attacks with unarmed. I don't like dealing less damage to do a special attack when it's clearly not working as intended.

[Thorzian]

One other thing - if you're a ninja spy, your 25% incorporeality stacks with everything, and I don't know of any monsters that have Ghost Touch.

incorporeal creatures are not affected by an incorporeal ability. though i cant think of any epic incorporeals.

[Bunker]

incorporeal creatures are not affected by an incorporeal ability. though i cant think of any epic incorporeals.

wiz king

[moorewr]

How did Last Stand feel with the feat swap, Coldin? Did you run any more after that?

[Coldin]

Last stand went pretty well. Group fell apart afterward though.

[Coldin]

One thing that I forgot, is that you need a second feat on top of Stunning Fist to qualify for Shintoa. Originally that feat was going to be CE, but since I swapped CE out for Stunning Fist....well, can't pick that up now. :)

[moorewr]

One thing that I forgot, is that you need a second feat on top of Stunning Fist to qualify for Shintoa. Originally that feat was going to be CE, but since I swapped CE out for Stunning Fist....well, can't pick that up now. :)

What are your current feats?

[Coldin]

Mostly standard. The main thing is that Taikai has the Dragonmarks of Healing, which are nice, but take up a lot of feat slots. The plan was to get rid of them with a TR, pick up the Monk Past Life feat, and fill in the gaps for the PRE.

[Coldin]

Feats are (in no particular order): TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Least Mark, Lesser Mark, Greater Mark, Toughness, Stunning Fist, Weapon Finesse, and Improved Crit

[moorewr]

For now you could drop the Greater Mark to get your Shintao on..

edit: cross-posted with your list. :)
So, I intuit your feats as:
Toughness
Stunning First
Least/Lesser/Greater Mark of Healing
TWF, ITWF, GTWF
Weapon Finesse

[Coldin]

Well, will have to wait two days for that. No rush really.

[Shyv]

I would actualy suggest dropping Imp Crit for one of the other pre-reqs. The only time you miss it is when fighting against raid bosses.

Or the flip side of it is to drop the entire dragonmark line. At level 20 with the healing curse and finisher the healing is pretty good. When soloing use the vampric handwraps for an added healing boost.

[Eldamir]

As strange as it sounds on first thought, I agree with Shyv here. (strangeness in the suggestion not strangeness in the agreement! :cool:)

[Shyv]

I would also suggest dropping toughness for Power Attack if you are keeping the dragonmark line, +5 to dmg on every hit > 43 hp. And for sure pick it up if you drop the whole D.mark line.

[Coldin]

The plan is already to drop the healing mark line. Just don't have the resources to do it yet. :)

[Thorzian]

I would also suggest dropping toughness for Power Attack if you are keeping the dragonmark line, +5 to dmg on every hit > 43 hp. And for sure pick it up if you drop the whole D.mark line.

i always wonder why people assume PA = +5 to every hit. especially on a monk. the melee class with the most difficult time actually getting a good to-hit. -5 to hit is potentially (and likely) a 25% loss in dps.. is that worth +5 damage when you do hit? sure, its great for portals and harry but really, who gives a crap about those anymore anyway?

[Shyv]

i always wonder why people assume PA = +5 to every hit. especially on a monk. the melee class with the most difficult time actually getting a good to-hit. -5 to hit is potentially (and likely) a 25% loss in dps.. is that worth +5 damage when you do hit? sure, its great for portals and harry but really, who gives a crap about those anymore anyway?

I've never had a hard time hitting with my monk. Tharnes goggles, or some other source of + to attack when sneak attacking, halfling guile, flanking, some +5 handwraps, and it's off to the races. And that's not even considering that everything in epics is either being held or stunned so that +5 is of even greater value.

Hitting a stunned or held mob with power attack on is even more dmg than doing the same against harry or a portal. But you're right, who cares about crap like that. :rolleyes:

[moorewr]

i always wonder why people assume PA = +5 to every hit. especially on a monk. the melee class with the most difficult time actually getting a good to-hit. -5 to hit is potentially (and likely) a 25% loss in dps.. is that worth +5 damage when you do hit? sure, its great for portals and harry but really, who gives a crap about those anymore anyway?

Yeah.. Power Attack is a must for most full BAB str-based characters, but even then you sometimes should turn it off..

I doubt Taikai needs PA. He surely needs toughness since 400 hp can vanish in a blink in the harder epics (or hard/elite ToDs, for instance).

[Thorzian]

I've never had a hard time hitting with my monk. Tharnes goggles, or some other source of + to attack when sneak attacking, halfling guile, flanking, some +5 handwraps, and it's off to the races. And that's not even considering that everything in epics is either being held or stunned so that +5 is of even greater value.

Hitting a stunned or held mob with power attack on is even more dmg than doing the same against harry or a portal. But you're right, who cares about crap like that. :rolleyes:

im on my 3rd monk.. tharnes is there.. and ive had some serious hard times hitting. on a ninja build.


monks are NOT a full bab character. i said nothing about halflings. you mentioned stunning and +5 handwraps.. ive never seen +5 stunning 10 wraps.

monks dont get full bab.. monks dont get favored enemy.. monks dont get rogue bonus to flanking.. monks dont get rage or power surge or attack boost or haste boost or ANY other melee bonus that all others melee classes get.

im not saying that monks are bad dps.. far from it, the ToD, the attack speed, the dc on stuns, incorporeality, easy access to a good ac, damage reduction on pure builds and the like make for one of the best dps classes out there.. even without power attack.

when your average hit is doing 65-90 damage, are you better off turning that to 70-95 and missing 1 out of every 4 swings that you didnt before?

as for dps against held or stunned mobd.. there's nothing you're going to do with a monk to keep up to the fighters and barbarians for dps in those situations.. let them handle it. now you're talking about turning 130 to 135 points per swing.. an even higher loss in dps gain %wise

i tried to find a list of epic boss ac that i saw one time.. cant find it right not but malicia is a 68.. i know that one for a fact.. lailat is high 50's, velah is around 50, the genies in von6 are around 60.. i wish i could remember others.. tell me that you're monk has a 67 to hit.. or even a 50.

[Shyv]

im on my 3rd monk.. tharnes is there.. and ive had some serious hard times hitting. on a ninja build.


monks are NOT a full bab character. i said nothing about halflings. you mentioned stunning and +5 handwraps.. ive never seen +5 stunning 10 wraps.

Monks are a full BaB character when centered. I would think being on your third monk you would know this. Also Coldins build is a halfling so it needs to be considered. Look at all of the factors before tossing a generalization at the problem. As for the handwraps I wasn't putting the two together. If on stunning duty, turn off powerattack and put your stunners on. If everything is being held then tack on those +5's, turn power attack on and add something to the party DPS.


monks dont get full bab.. monks dont get favored enemy.. monks dont get rogue bonus to flanking.. monks dont get rage or power surge or attack boost or haste boost or ANY other melee bonus that all others melee classes get.

Everyone gets a bonus to hit when flanking. Monks get their stance bonus to stats, and while not as high as powersurge or rage it's still there. You can't mention one without taking the other into account.

im not saying that monks are bad dps.. far from it, the ToD, the attack speed, the dc on stuns, incorporeality, easy access to a good ac, damage reduction on pure builds and the like make for one of the best dps classes out there.. even without power attack.

when your average hit is doing 65-90 damage, are you better off turning that to 70-95 and missing 1 out of every 4 swings that you didnt before?

as for dps against held or stunned mobd.. there's nothing you're going to do with a monk to keep up to the fighters and barbarians for dps in those situations.. let them handle it. now you're talking about turning 130 to 135 points per swing.. an even higher loss in dps gain %wise

Let me say this slowly. If everything is held/stunned, you hit on a 2+ so having power attack on is only a benefit. Also that +5 is actualy a +10 in auto-crit situations. With the faster attack speed of monks leaving that +10 per hit at home is not helping your party. Just because you can't get the big numbers like the other melee classes doesn't mean you can just pike and chalk it up to being a monk.

In RED

[Shyv]

i tried to find a list of epic boss ac that i saw one time.. cant find it right not but malicia is a 68.. i know that one for a fact.. lailat is high 50's, velah is around 50, the genies in von6 are around 60.. i wish i could remember others.. tell me that you're monk has a 67 to hit.. or even a 50.

When the boss AC's are that high then you....wait for it......turn power attack off. It's not rocket science here. It's not like power attack is a static effect that is always on. Use it when you can, turn it off when you need to. Really clicking the on/off button isn't all that difficult.

[moorewr]

I love it when you two get going.. :reddevil:

[Thorzian]

yes, everyone gets a flanking bonus.. rogues just get more.

yes coldin's build is a halfling, but a light monk.. no sneak attack so no guile bonus. ( I think.. i might be wrong on this one but it makes sense to me. i dont have light monks)

i didnt avoid mentioning the stance bonus, just that its much less then other classes get.

im with you on the shock of my missing the full bab while centered.. *little embarrased on that one*

my personal opinion on this one.. any feat you need to turn off.. ever.. isnt helping you. those toughness hp are always there.

mobs are always held in your epic groups.. great. personally i dont count on others to make my toons good at what they do (except expecting the healer to heal).. that includes relying on flanking bonuses

you dont need to talk slow around me just quit arguing the absolute best case scenerio as the expected one. (flanking halfling sneak attacking held mob)

[Thorzian]

I love it when you two get going.. :reddevil:

hush you

[Shyv]

you dont need to talk slow around me just quit arguing the absolute best case scenerio as the expected one. (flanking halfling sneak attacking held mob)

It's not best case, it's every case for Coldins build. Which is what we're talking about here.

1.) Everyone gets a +4 flanking bonus
2.) Halflings can get a +4 to hit while sneak attacking
3.) If you don't have aggro, take .5 seconds and move to a flanking position. (I take it you don't twitch when two-handed fighting, or move out of the way of area effect spells either?)
4.) +8 to your attack bonus

If 43 HP is making the difference between your character living or dying then you are playing it wrong. Now if it were a class or race that can get more than that out of the feat then go for it. But it's such a small payoff on halfling monks that it's not worth it. It's better to add another dimension of utility to the build instead.

[Eldamir]

yes coldin's build is a halfling, but a light monk.. no sneak attack so no guile bonus. ( I think.. i migh

Anyone with halfling guile gets the sneak attack bonus regardless of class. My halfling wizard and halfling barb both get it at least :)