Bard advice

[Master of None]

So I might finally get around to rolling up a bard. I'm planning on going the spellsinger route, and it looks like drow is the best bet. I'm looking mainly to be able to do cc and buffs, with decent healing and some fighting ability. The main question is whether I take two levels of rogue and try for reasonable rogue skills as well. I know the rogue multiclass probably works better with a melee-focused bard, but I've already got a squishy twf character that I like.

Without further ado, please let me know what you think of these builds.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.85
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Minor Threat
Level 16 True Neutral Drow Male
(2 Rogue \ 14 Bard)
Hit Points: 132
Spell Points: 696
BAB: 11\11\16\21
Fortitude: 5
Reflex: 15
Will: 8

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Stats Modified Stats
Abilities (Level 1) (Level 16)
Strength 9 10
Dexterity 16 16
Constitution 12 12
Intelligence 15 16
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 18 25

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 1
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 1
+3 Tome of Intelligence used at level 20
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 20
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 20

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 16)
Balance 7 7
Bluff 4 7
Concentration 1 22
Diplomacy 8 24
Disable Device 7 22
Haggle 8 13
Heal -1 -1
Hide 7 7
Intimidate 4 7
Jump 1 1
Listen -1 1
Move Silently 7 7
Open Lock 7 22
Perform n/a 24
Repair 3 3
Search 7 23
Spot 1 3
Swim 0 0
Tumble 4 4
Use Magic Device 8 28

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Nimble Fingers

Level 2 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic I
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music I

Level 3 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Finesse
Spell (1): Charm Person
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage I
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I
Enhancement: Bard Charisma I
Enhancement: Bard Wand Mastery I

Level 4 (Bard)
Spell (1): Hypnotism
Enhancement: Bard Concentration I
Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Song I

Level 5 (Bard)
Spell (2): Suggestion
Spell (2): Cure Moderate Wounds
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack I
Enhancement: Drow Melee Attack I
Enhancement: Bard Concentration II
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic II

Level 6 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Spell (2): Blur
Spell (1): Remove Fear
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music II

Level 7 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song II
Enhancement: Spellsinger I

Level 8 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Bard Charisma II

Level 9 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Focus: Conjuration
Spell (2): Rage
Spell (3): Good Hope
Spell (3): Haste
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song II
Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Song II

Level 10 (Bard)
Spell (3): Charm Monster
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage II

Level 11 (Bard)

Level 12 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons
Spell (3): Cure Serious Wounds
Spell (4): Freedom of Movement
Spell (4): Otto's Sphere of Dancing
Enhancement: Bard Charisma III

Level 13 (Bard)
Spell (4): Dimension Door
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song III
Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Incredible Song I

Level 14 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic III
Enhancement: Bard Spell Penetration I

Level 15 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Heighten Spell
Spell (4): Cure Critical Wounds
Spell (5): Greater Heroism
Spell (5): Mass Suggestion
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music III

Level 16 (Bard)
Spell (5): Cure Light Wounds, Mass
Enhancement: Drow Melee Attack II
Enhancement: Bard Wand Mastery II



Please ignore the +2 and +3 tomes. Looks like a bug, because I didn't put those in.

Or...

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.85
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Pezzati the Cheerful
Level 16 True Neutral Drow Male
(16 Bard)
Hit Points: 132
Spell Points: 870
BAB: 12\12\17\22
Fortitude: 6
Reflex: 11
Will: 9

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Stats Modified Stats
Abilities (Level 1) (Level 16)
Strength 15 16
Dexterity 13 13
Constitution 12 12
Intelligence 11 12
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 18 26

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 1
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 1
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 1
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 20
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 20
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 20
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 20

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 16)
Balance 3 3
Bluff 4 8
Concentration 5 24
Diplomacy 7 27
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 8 26
Heal -1 -1
Hide 2 17
Intimidate 4 8
Jump 3 3
Listen -1 1
Move Silently 3 18
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform 7 26
Repair 1 1
Search 1 3
Spot -1 1
Swim 3 3
Tumble 2 2
Use Magic Device 8 32

Level 1 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Focus: Enchantment
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic I
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music I

Level 2 (Bard)
Spell (1): Charm Person
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage I
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I

Level 3 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness

Level 4 (Bard)
Spell (2): Blur
Spell (2): Suggestion

Level 5 (Bard)
Spell (1): Hypnotism
Spell (2): Cure Moderate Wounds
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack I
Enhancement: Bard Concentration I
Enhancement: Bard Concentration II
Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Song I
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic II
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music II
Enhancement: Bard Charisma I
Enhancement: Bard Wand Mastery I

Level 6 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song II
Enhancement: Spellsinger I

Level 7 (Bard)
Spell (2): Glitterdust
Spell (3): Good Hope
Spell (3): Haste

Level 8 (Bard)
Spell (3): Charm Monster
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack II
Enhancement: Bard Charisma II

Level 9 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Use Magic Device
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage II

Level 10 (Bard)
Spell (3): Cure Serious Wounds
Spell (4): Freedom of Movement
Spell (4): Otto's Sphere of Dancing
Enhancement: Bard Charisma III

Level 11 (Bard)
Spell (4): Cure Critical Wounds

Level 12 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage III
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music III

Level 13 (Bard)
Spell (4): Dimension Door
Spell (5): Greater Heroism
Spell (5): Mass Suggestion
Enhancement: Bard Spell Penetration I

Level 14 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Song II
Enhancement: Bard Wand Mastery II

Level 15 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Heighten Spell

Level 16 (Bard)
Spell (6): Shout, Greater
Spell (6): Cure Moderate Wounds, Mass
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song III
Enhancement: Drow Melee Attack I
Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Incredible Song I
Enhancement: Bard Spell Penetration II



I figured I'd let you all pick these apart instead of getting called a hopeless n00b by posting them on the main boards. Thanks for all suggestions.

[Jules]

On the barding rogue one you're going to have a bit of a problem with spotting the traps. You may need to invest some skill points into this or instead of nimble fingers take skill focus spot. Another option would be to boost up your wisdom which controls the spot.

If you want to focus of healing, you may want to consider taking empowered healing as one of your early feats.

Jules

[nakano]

Personally I am not a fan of multiclassing bards. It delays the cool spells even longer. It also shortens song length and reduces the number of songs. I know some folks that have had great success with it, but personally I don't like it. So needless to say I am not offering commentary on option #1.

As to option #2, I like the spell selection, it mirrors closely what I have on K. Obviously that means that I like it. Feats make sense in terms of the selections and the order in which you take them. Overall I like the build and think that it will perform well. Just as a warning , playing a low level bard can be a frustrating experience as many fighter types pretty much make Fascinate useless(between THF and aggro magnate TWF types.)

[Vic]

Personally I am not a fan of multiclassing bards.
What's Narsicca's build again?
Your rogue bard looks fairly similar to my layout for Viq. The one thing that jumps out at me is you take you second rogue level before you get Haste and GH. My thinking was to take the second rogue level after Haste GH as they're super tasty bard buffs.

[nakano]

What's Narsicca's build again?
Your rogue bard looks fairly similar to my layout for Viq. The one thing that jumps out at me is you take you second rogue level before you get Haste and GH. My thinking was to take the second rogue level after Haste GH as they're super tasty bard buffs.

Narsicca met this evil monster called Delete for the very reason I mentioned above. I tried it, could not do it, deleted him to clear space for a new/old concept that I am trying.

Not knowing that my comment must have been funny as hell.

As to the order of levels I have to agree with Viq. Take the second level of rogue after Good Hope and Haste. They are your go to spells.

[Coldin]

Well plus taking the 2nd level of rogue then gives you a better opportunity to fill out those cross class skills like Spot, DD, OL, ect.

[Bigpapi]

At the risk of being non-Rp-ish, I say just screw Spot with any Rogue cross-class. In most quests you know where the traps are or might be (or a WF barb will find them for you), so just do a search when you are near them and don't bother investing in the spot skill.

[Eldamir]

Spot has more applications than just detecting traps and secret doors ... since they made hidden monsters ... umm... hidden :D, having a spot at least in the teens (including item if possible) makes seeing their outlines much easier.

[Bigpapi]

Hey, I'm not saying spot isn't useful... But if you don't have a high wisdom, i think its more economical to invest the skill points elsewhere

[Master of None]

Good point about waiting to take the second rogue level. I think I'll just have to give up on spot. I tried to fit it in, but four cross-class skills was very hard to keep up, and I love having diplomacy on fairly squishy characters. I could put some points into it, but I don't know if it would make much difference. In DDO, having a few skill ranks is almost the same as having none in most cases. I wouldn't sell myself as a complete rogue, but I should be able to do a fair amount.

The low dex in the second build is a concern, but I figure I'm not going to have much of an AC anyway, and this way I can save a feat instead of having to take weapon finesse to hit anything.

[Coldin]

Split the ranks in spot I say. Don't try to keep it maxed, but if you're keeping it at least always half of max, it will be useful for you. And you don't need a max diplomacy either. To make up for any lost ranks, just find an item that has a bit of diplomacy boost on the side.

[Master of None]

Thanks for the feedback all. I think I'll go with a slightly modified version of the pure build (skipping the tomes for the moment) and play with that for a few levels and see how it goes. Since I'm a bard virgin I'd like to get some experience with the class before trying the rogue multiclass.

[Jules]

Thanks for the feedback all. I think I'll go with a slightly modified version of the pure build (skipping the tomes for the moment) and play with that for a few levels and see how it goes. Since I'm a bard virgin I'd like to get some experience with the class before trying the rogue multiclass.

I have rolled and deleted something like 3 different rog/bard builds. The bard is so much a utilitarian class a pure bard needs more feats. Rogues need to be skill heavy to be really successful. Combining the two is hard work.

Working on Darrkling now - but I have high hopes for her. I'll post her stats before heading into work tonight.

Jules

[lostinjapan]

As a player of 2 capped bards, and having made many others which are RIP now (8 at last count, but one of those was just to reroll on different account), I have to say there are so many various things you can do with a bard.

For your pure bard spellsinger role, here's a few of my critiques and suggestions:
1. Stats: Your stat training looks good, although I'd eat a +1 dex tome also to give you another + to your reflex save.
2. Skills: Train up your bluff and intimidate (which are both cha based skills also). I wouldn't worry so much about hide and move silently...it's not really going to be your role.
3. Feats: Looks good
4. Enhancements: Looks good
5. Spells: Where's the Rage? Also...I've never been a real fan of Greater Shout. Comparitively it does little damage (from what I've seen - even with sup pot item).

Your bard/rogue combination:
1. Stats: Ouch on the wisdom. See skills for reason.
2. Skills: Ouch on the Spot. If they start implementing more 'random' traps (only a few right now) and make them really random...you're going to have problems with your rogue skills...low wisdom and no points to spot. In addition, this enables you to 'see' the monsters before you see them. This is the only problem I have with this build. Even my sorcerer has a good spot.
3. Feats: Looks good
4. Enhancements: I'd add the elf and rogue spot enhancements (see above).
5. Spells: Looks good.

As far as your level selection...I see nothing wrong with it. Rogue first level, wait until 8th to take second.

[Master of None]

As a player of 2 capped bards, and having made many others which are RIP now (8 at last count, but one of those was just to reroll on different account), I have to say there are so many various things you can do with a bard.

For your pure bard spellsinger role, here's a few of my critiques and suggestions:
1. Stats: Your stat training looks good, although I'd eat a +1 dex tome also to give you another + to your reflex save.
2. Skills: Train up your bluff and intimidate (which are both cha based skills also). I wouldn't worry so much about hide and move silently...it's not really going to be your role.
3. Feats: Looks good
4. Enhancements: Looks good
5. Spells: Where's the Rage? Also...I've never been a real fan of Greater Shout. Comparitively it does little damage (from what I've seen - even with sup pot item).



1. I think for the trial version of this build I'll drop int down to 10 and then should be able to get dex to 14. I'm not sure I have a dex tome lying around, so I'd have to pick one up if I decide to go ahead with the original build and add in the tomes.
2. Yeah, wasn't sure about hide and move silently, but thought it might be useful for fascinating sometimes. Why do you suggest bluff and intimidate? I certainly won't want to pull aggro by intimidating in combat, and I find diplomacy is better than bluff for shedding aggro, since I probably won't solo too much.
5. Good point, rage would be a good buff to add in. Any suggestions for 6th level spells? The choices seemed pretty underwhelming, so I wasn't too sure.

[lostinjapan]

2. Yeah, wasn't sure about hide and move silently, but thought it might be useful for fascinating sometimes. Why do you suggest bluff and intimidate? I certainly won't want to pull aggro by intimidating in combat, and I find diplomacy is better than bluff for shedding aggro, since I probably won't solo too much.
5. Good point, rage would be a good buff to add in. Any suggestions for 6th level spells? The choices seemed pretty underwhelming, so I wasn't too sure.

2. Because intim is needed in certain quests and will be used in more (Crucible) and because it is a charisma based skill (great for bards!). Because bluff is being updated in Mod 7 and (see above).
5. Otto's. Enchantment Spell. Irresistable. What else could you ask for? Well..you can't have a pony. :p

[Coldin]

Otto's is the only really good 6th level bard spell. Greater Shout is somewhat useful, but it's range is pretty limited.